Would protestors be safer? Thousands of masked people with guns. Chaos?
I can’t help but think that the only solution to ICE is a “well regulated militia” in combination with political reform, with both being necessary.
We saw ICE disarm and shoot a citizen who had a gun. A lesson from this is that a weapon is only threatening if we create an environment where it’s a credible threat, like outnumbering them with armed citizens.
Masks? I could go either way on this. Masks can be protective, and can also be seen as alienating from the community. That alienation is not some unchangeable truth, it’s just a result of how they’re perceived in our cultures (often associated with crime). For a counterexample, look at the Zapatistas who regularly wore masks to protect them from cartel and state violence:
[photos; click to show]
That’s a great point I hadn’t considered about masks. Face paint and drag makeup can help protect from facial recognition, and they’ll also let us speak clearly and emote on camera to make any footage more compelling. I wonder if that’s something that could catch on.
Bullies target the defenseless, and always pick weak targets. So unarmed protestors who pose no threat, are going to get attacked far quicker than an armed and disciplined group.
But unfortunately US cops can kill anyone with impunity so no one is safe even if they do defend themselves.
whack one cop and i bet they won’t be as “brave”.
More obviously, Americans are nutters
My guess is: ICE shoots first (either because of their regular activities or trying to incite a larger riot), the protesters shoot at them, the media shows it as a national tragedy between a rebellious, anti-American group of traitors and the honorable Burger brownshirts and the prez drops the military there and in nearby areas, imposes curfews, etc etc and further restrictions on freedom that, if they trigger a larger conflict, the people would never win because they’d be fighting the American empire’s forces. If it happens, other cities would lower their heads, and America would continue its path into a slave base country. Maybe?
the people would never win because they’d be fighting the American empire’s forces
I think the US has been great at spreading the “we are so invincibly powerful” narrative, but, how would that actually work? Do you see the US military carpet-bombing their own cities? A nuke here and there?
Soldiers, in the end, are people. No matter how MAGA they can be, I bet most would think twice about bombing their own country and countrymen.
I mean, there was WACO, but hopefully you’re right and I’m just too used to these old narratives and exaggerating whatever inhumanity some Americans might have.
I do think there’d be more than a few mutinies and refusals to follow orders all across the board. Perhaps even to the level of the president trying to nationalize (for instance) the Minnesota National Guard, and their commander responding with a hearty “fuck you, eat shit”.
Most times the US military has gone up against the general population of a society, the US military has lost.
Soldiers would never be able to feel safe again, there is no safe home to return to. Even off duty, what if someone knows?
Then let’s hope that from a post civil war America something good can still grow, then. 👍
Odds of getting a democratic regime out of a civil war are usually fairly low. The guys with the guns normally do not like to give away their power.
Look at our world right now. How many democracies vs. authoritarian regimes do you count? Then, look at the world at any other point of history outside of the last 100 years.
Democracy is a very unique and rare form of government. I would not gamble on a civil war achieving the outcome you would prefer even if the “good guys” win.
This is my big hope. That this fall is so deep that it is burned into our DNA. That a more humane species of mankind emerges from the ashes.
Forlorn hope I’m afraid.
Have you read God Emperor of Dune? 😁
Why yes I have!
There would be violence, more or less.
Peaceful mass protests are the only way to stop this authoritarian takeover. If it gets violent the government will always have more firepower.
Trump and his cronies want the protests to become violent. They are hoping for an excuse to throw in jail or kill anyone they do not like. Do not do them that favor.
Fascists have never historically let go of power peacefully
Nope, peaceful protests have never worked at any point in history, and you are sold that they do, because it serves the interest of those in power who do not want to be challenged.
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Resisting is “authoritarian”. Rolling over and dying is libertarian.
“don’t give them an excuse to do the thing they are already doing”
liberals are so fucking useless i swear
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There would be more violence. These thugs in riot gear want an excuse to slaughter people en-mass.
It’s so relieving to watch so many people change their stance on the second amendment. Trump has done the pro gun movement a huge favor.
At the risk of dying themselves?
That only applies if they fight with equal weapons. In a violent conflict, a government might use armored vehicles, tear gas, drones etc. I don’t think the risk would be equal for both sides.
That’s also why I think that the second amendmend is pointless in today’s world. If it ever comes to a wider conflict between the general public and the government it’s not guns against guns. It’s guns against high-tech weapons.
It’s worth acknowledging that superior firepower hasn’t directly resulted in success for the US military. Guerilla armies like in Vietnam and in many countries in the Middle East such as Afghanistan have repelled US invasion, and wargame simulations (including US on US wargames!) have repeatedly shown this.
Add into the mix that there was a serious degree of military revolt (complemented by homeland revolt) in the Vietnam War (and other later wars too). While this was largely boosted by it being a conscription army at the time, I still believe an internal US war would make the military similarly vulnerable to internal conflict, and even external sabotage by citizens.
I doubt they’re worried about that. Protest implies that the gun is symbolic or defensive. ICE is there to shoot, and will shoot first.
If it turns into a gunfight, one side gets a gov pension when the smoke clears, and the other side gets prison if they live.
Fair but it’s hard to pin down who shot who if there are hundreds/thousands of shooters and all wearing masks.
I think the real issue would be having to deal with national guard.
They think they’re beyond consequences and “it can’t happen to me, I’m the main character!”
bro they jumped and executed a person they don’t think about risks anymore
Legal repercussions are totally different than thousands of masked people with guns. They all know that the law is slow and easy to get around.
More. The larger the group, the more distributed the intelligence, and the larger the chance that someone with unmitigated mental health problems are present.
someone with unmitigated mental health problems are present.
You mean ICE ?
