a secession is different than a coup, a coup is successful if there is a transfer of power (or the constitutional transfer of power fails, like when Trump tried to prevent Biden from taking office) … and yes, even if Trump led a coup and was in power for a short time like the short life of the Confederacy, I do think retaining power after his constitutional term would be a “success” in the sense that I mean
and I do think the Confederacy successfully seceded from the Union, even if it didn’t last long
and in a broader sense the Confederacy succeeded in many ways even if we acknowledge they lost the war - after Lincoln’s assassination, the South was met with appeasements and there was a failure to integrate or enforce rule of law in the South … from the perspective of Black lives at the time, I would say the South definitely succeeded in maintaining their power and control, and we see this even in the ways that massacres of tens of thousands of Black folks in the South after the civil war went unpunished: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedmen_massacres
I think it’s a rhetorical distinction, but an important one to be aware of.
It would be terrible for us to waste time arguing over whether or not “Trump can succeed!” when we both agree that any such success is likely to be short lived, lead to immediate violence, and most probably result in a violent removal of his administration from power.
(Not to say that we necessarily agree on those things – just that it’d be a waste of time arguing if we do.)
Agreed on most of that - but I don’t know that violent removal of his administration from power after a successful coup is the most likely outcome - the US military was in the hands of other side in the case of the Confederacy … a successful Trump coup would maybe lead to schisms within the military or between state National Guards and federal forces (maybe), but it’s also possible Trump just takes and holds power and there is no domestic military force that is willing or able to remove him. Maybe California and other states would band together, but I’m not sure they would have the military to fight off the US military if they are loyal to Trump after a coup.
It’s possible Trump’s coup will be more like what happened in Russia, where they find a way to do it without much bloodshed by undermining the democratic institutions of elections, media, etc. so that it all appears to be constitutional and legal, but the government has clearly become autocratic.
This entirely depends on what you mean by “succeed”.
Would you consider the Confederate States of America (nominally founded during and extinguished by the 19th century US civil war) a “success”?
a secession is different than a coup, a coup is successful if there is a transfer of power (or the constitutional transfer of power fails, like when Trump tried to prevent Biden from taking office) … and yes, even if Trump led a coup and was in power for a short time like the short life of the Confederacy, I do think retaining power after his constitutional term would be a “success” in the sense that I mean
and I do think the Confederacy successfully seceded from the Union, even if it didn’t last long
and in a broader sense the Confederacy succeeded in many ways even if we acknowledge they lost the war - after Lincoln’s assassination, the South was met with appeasements and there was a failure to integrate or enforce rule of law in the South … from the perspective of Black lives at the time, I would say the South definitely succeeded in maintaining their power and control, and we see this even in the ways that massacres of tens of thousands of Black folks in the South after the civil war went unpunished: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedmen_massacres
I think it’s a rhetorical distinction, but an important one to be aware of.
It would be terrible for us to waste time arguing over whether or not “Trump can succeed!” when we both agree that any such success is likely to be short lived, lead to immediate violence, and most probably result in a violent removal of his administration from power.
(Not to say that we necessarily agree on those things – just that it’d be a waste of time arguing if we do.)
Agreed on most of that - but I don’t know that violent removal of his administration from power after a successful coup is the most likely outcome - the US military was in the hands of other side in the case of the Confederacy … a successful Trump coup would maybe lead to schisms within the military or between state National Guards and federal forces (maybe), but it’s also possible Trump just takes and holds power and there is no domestic military force that is willing or able to remove him. Maybe California and other states would band together, but I’m not sure they would have the military to fight off the US military if they are loyal to Trump after a coup.
It’s possible Trump’s coup will be more like what happened in Russia, where they find a way to do it without much bloodshed by undermining the democratic institutions of elections, media, etc. so that it all appears to be constitutional and legal, but the government has clearly become autocratic.