I provided stories that you have been unable to disprove.
You can’t disprove anonymous testimonies, that’s why the entire Amnesty International report consists of them. From the beginning I asked for independent journalistic work with material evidence, and you’ve supported your claims with nothing the likes of that. Again, compare that to the evidence for genocide in Palestine.
On the topic of Palestine, I think it’s completely wrong that Palestinian civilians have been killed with Israeli bombs and due to an Israeli starvation campaign. But I think that’s a separate issue to whether or not the PRC has mistreated ethnic minorities.
Regarding testimonies, apparently there are several women who have talked about rape and sexual abuse in Xinjiang camps. In the West, when a woman claims she’s been raped, people on the left will often say we should believe those women. If we’re going to take rape allegations by western women seriously then we should probably take rape allegations by Xinjiang women seriously too.
Those last two links are to The New York Times and the BBC, and I guess you’ll say they’re “fake news” or whatever. I’m pretty sure they’re both accurate sources and if they do publish anything false they will usually publish corrections where they admit their mistakes.
Okay I read what you wrote. You say it’s just random instances of police violence in Xinjiang but it looks like an orchestrated programme of forcing Uyghurs to become communist loyalists. The BBC looked at documents leaked from Chinese authorities (these documents were leaked to other media outlets too such as Der Spiegel in Germany):
The cache contains another secret speech, delivered in 2017 by Chen Quanguo - until recently Xinjiang’s hardline Communist Party secretary.
“For some, even five years re-education may not be enough,” he tells his audience of senior military and police cadres, a seeming admission that for as long as any Uyghur continues to feel a loyalty to identity or faith at least as strong as to the Party, there’s no end in sight.
You mention fabricated western propaganda, and sure that can happen. Surely that would come from governments though rather than media companies.
As for the New York Times and the BBC. Maybe you think they spin things in a certain way, or that they don’t cover what they should cover. But that’s a different question to the question of whether their claims are factual. You could have a media outlet that selectively covers only particular topics, but nonetheless their facts may still be accurate.
You might dislike the US and Israel, and sure they have done some terrible things over the years, but maybe there are lots of countries that have done terrible things. Maybe China is one of those countries.
Claims in 2017 by a communist party member cherrypicked from 400 pages of documents in Chinese is very little incriminating in terms of what I’ve been asking from the beginning: material evidence of ongoing widespread mistreatment of Uyghur. We can move the goalposts to the claim “there are some officials in the Communist Party of China who have too hard, arguably racist and repressive stances regarding Uyghurs” if you want, but it’s not the original claim to which I’m responding.
BBC and New York Crimes both repeated Hasbara propaganda of widespread rapes during Oct 7th, which is exactly the same thing we’re arguing here. They don’t need to “make things up”, they only need to take a few instances of abuse, generalize them, and run a nonstop atrocity propaganda campaign for political purposes. Media manipulation in this regard is more refined and effective than, say, conservative propaganda like “Jan 6th was actually antifa”, which consists on simply manufacturing facts.
China isn’t a perfect state, and I don’t make such claims, but arguing about genocide or persecution of an ethnic minority is a very serious claim that, being a topic that in theory affects millions of Uyghurs, would have led to massive amounts of footage by smartphone owners as we have seen from Gaza
I found it by clicking on my inbox’s RSS feed. If you want to copy it, this is what I can see:
Regarding testimonies, apparently there are several women
There are some isolated testimonies, true. I don’t doubt police violence has taken place, as it does everywhere. Mistreatments of individuals by the police is a recurring phenomenon everywhere in the world, though, and not isolated or specific to China. I condemn the isolated events, but they don’t indicate widespread abuse of prisoners.
Furthermore, testimonies of atrocity propaganda are a well-known tool of the West, such as the infamous Nayirah testimony used to justify the Gulf war. It’s well known that bounties are offered by intelligence agencies to manufacture stories of atrocity propaganda, and so when using testimonies one has to be careful for generalizing. It’s better to refer to independent material evidence, of which essentially none exists for any ongoing mistreatment of Uyghurs.
The “leaked documents” feature internal communications of the party talking about adopting a strong stance against terrorism following the radical islamist terrorist attacks in 2013-onwards. They show no proof of mass mistreatment of Uyghurs, and the whole thing is more of a nothingburger consisting of a few questionably translated bold claims by government officials.
The New York Crimes and the BBC have been complicit over the past years in the whitewashing of the genocidal state of Israel, which has proven that beyond ethical journalism, they’re underpinned by supporting the US-aligned geopolitical narratives.
You can’t disprove anonymous testimonies, that’s why the entire Amnesty International report consists of them. From the beginning I asked for independent journalistic work with material evidence, and you’ve supported your claims with nothing the likes of that. Again, compare that to the evidence for genocide in Palestine.
On the topic of Palestine, I think it’s completely wrong that Palestinian civilians have been killed with Israeli bombs and due to an Israeli starvation campaign. But I think that’s a separate issue to whether or not the PRC has mistreated ethnic minorities.
Regarding testimonies, apparently there are several women who have talked about rape and sexual abuse in Xinjiang camps. In the West, when a woman claims she’s been raped, people on the left will often say we should believe those women. If we’re going to take rape allegations by western women seriously then we should probably take rape allegations by Xinjiang women seriously too.
Also apparently there have been leaked documents from the Chinese government which give details about the Xinjiang camps.
Those last two links are to The New York Times and the BBC, and I guess you’ll say they’re “fake news” or whatever. I’m pretty sure they’re both accurate sources and if they do publish anything false they will usually publish corrections where they admit their mistakes.
I accidentally deleted my comment, does it still feature in your inbox so I can copy-paste it instead of rewriting it?
Okay I read what you wrote. You say it’s just random instances of police violence in Xinjiang but it looks like an orchestrated programme of forcing Uyghurs to become communist loyalists. The BBC looked at documents leaked from Chinese authorities (these documents were leaked to other media outlets too such as Der Spiegel in Germany):
You mention fabricated western propaganda, and sure that can happen. Surely that would come from governments though rather than media companies.
As for the New York Times and the BBC. Maybe you think they spin things in a certain way, or that they don’t cover what they should cover. But that’s a different question to the question of whether their claims are factual. You could have a media outlet that selectively covers only particular topics, but nonetheless their facts may still be accurate.
You might dislike the US and Israel, and sure they have done some terrible things over the years, but maybe there are lots of countries that have done terrible things. Maybe China is one of those countries.
Claims in 2017 by a communist party member cherrypicked from 400 pages of documents in Chinese is very little incriminating in terms of what I’ve been asking from the beginning: material evidence of ongoing widespread mistreatment of Uyghur. We can move the goalposts to the claim “there are some officials in the Communist Party of China who have too hard, arguably racist and repressive stances regarding Uyghurs” if you want, but it’s not the original claim to which I’m responding.
BBC and New York Crimes both repeated Hasbara propaganda of widespread rapes during Oct 7th, which is exactly the same thing we’re arguing here. They don’t need to “make things up”, they only need to take a few instances of abuse, generalize them, and run a nonstop atrocity propaganda campaign for political purposes. Media manipulation in this regard is more refined and effective than, say, conservative propaganda like “Jan 6th was actually antifa”, which consists on simply manufacturing facts.
China isn’t a perfect state, and I don’t make such claims, but arguing about genocide or persecution of an ethnic minority is a very serious claim that, being a topic that in theory affects millions of Uyghurs, would have led to massive amounts of footage by smartphone owners as we have seen from Gaza
I found it by clicking on my inbox’s RSS feed. If you want to copy it, this is what I can see:
I will read through it now.
Thanks a lot
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