I wouldn’t have had kids if I thought they would suffer, obviously. You have kids with the hope and ambition, and belief that they will fare well. It took me years to build up the confidence in myself as an adult to even try to have kids.
No child can ever give consent. Does that mean we should also neuter all animals? tHeiR ofFsPrInG WiLl sUfFeR. Like where does this make sense? This is a fundamental necessity of life that you’re trying to talk out of somebody. It’s innate. If you don’t understand it, you don’t feel it. And we are at an explanatory impasse. That’s why we have to agree to disagree here and now.
No hard feelings. 🤝 But please stop acting like I’m some villain. Thanks.
I’m not acting like you are some villain. I am trying to test your logic.
It boils down to “BuT mUh InStInCtS”
But you did though! Your kids will suffer greatly! Suffering that they didn’t need to experience.
There is also the chance your child doesn’t fare well. Hope is useless, they will suffer from the oncoming changes to our climate I guarantee it. We all will if we don’t die before it happens.
Exactly! Now you are getting it! A child cannot give you consent from the void. So what do we do? We don’t procreate, because in the void there is no pain, no suffering. You do not exist. So we go along with OUR lives and not rip someone who may not want to be here cough me cough. What about asexual people? Are they not biologically human because they don’t have this “urge”? I thought this was instinctual so shouldn’t everyone feel this way? I surely don’t feel this need you keep rambling on about. Sex is different than having a child, I can have sex and not bring someone into suffering.
Yeah if I could end all suffering on the planet I absolutely would. Animals suffer just as much as we do if not more in some circumstances (meat industry, dairy industry, etc.). We breed so many animals as if they are fucking toys it is disgusting. Especially when there are plenty in shelters about to be put down. However there really isn’t talking to animals now is there. I am talking to people that can actually take steps to prevent suffering.
Also you seem to keep confusing the instinct of mating. Children are byproduct of that instinct, there is no instinct to reproduce. Please stop saying stuff you are confidently incorrect about.
I don’t know what you want to call this instinct, mating or reproduction, whatever. And just because it’s an instinct doesn’t mean everyone needs to have it, no.
It’s a strong urge for me to have children and love them. I would have more if I thought we had room and could afford it, but see? I’m resisting that because of circumstances. I don’t know what you want me to say other than that.
Like I said, I don’t think I can explain this to you. We are at an impasse.
Obviously I’m going to give my all to make my kids suffer as little as possible, just like almost every other animal. 🤷♂️ That’s what we parents all do, those of us with our heads on straight.
Like I said, we are not agreeing here and this is exhausting like I knew it would be. Let’s just agree to disagree. It’s probably best here. You’re not reaching out to me with this, I’ve heard it before and I agree to some extent, but I can’t help what I feel. And I can’t explain this to you.
I could’ve decided I wouldn’t have kids, but it would go against my feelings, and it would probably make me incompatible with the love of my life.
We have good circumstances. We live in a country that still has somewhat real democracy in our constitution. If anything, we’ll deal with food shortages and maybe war. We’re already dealing with dairy and meat shortages and we are eating alternatives yet living good. But perhaps our far descendants won’t have to deal with hardship. 🙂
I know you don’t believe in hope, but this is my attempt to spread some. Maybe it doesn’t work on someone who lives where you do or who’ve been shaped by life as you have, I don’t know your situation. If so, I’m sorry. We’re just different, and that’s okay.
I’m not arguing against having children and I’m not saying you’re a bad person. But logically, saying “I can’t help what I feel” is not a valid reason to inflict suffering onto other people in any context.
Similarly, I don’t want to fucking be alive anymore, but suicide is the action deemed “selfish”. But not the action of my parents to bring me into the world.
I’m not saying you in particular, but yes, fuck society, reproduction is selfish and cruel, and just because you feel the way you do doesn’t make it any less so.
I’m sorry for your children who may have to grow up in a doomed world. I hope they don’t. And I hope they don’t regret YOUR decision to give them life.
I feel like this is driving a lot of your feelings in this matter, and I do want to be alive, so I cannot relate to your position, I think.
Some of us feel that being alive through hardship is worth it as long as we have each other to love and cherish. But of course, if those types of relationships are missing, or the hardship is too intense, it can be overpowering.
I hope you some day feel like you want to be alive. ❤️
Relating to my position is irrelevant. The core logic remains the same.
You may not think it, but the logical conclusion of your position is either
a.) it is okay to inflict suffering because I feel like it
Or
b.) I am not directly responsible for inflicting any suffering that my offspring goes through.
Or
c.) The quality of life I can provide for them supersedes/makes up for that suffering.
A is strictly wrong, B is wrong by my standards, and C is entirely subjective and is ultimately a question that you don’t really know the answer to and you just feel that way. See A.
But yes thank you I do not hope for any undue suffering in anyone’s life and I do not think that having children makes you due to suffer. But it is undoubtedly a selfish act in my book.
The chance that my kids will suffer extraordinarily is small. And yes, it is a gamble, fair enough. People still do things even though there’s risk, because of the possibilities and weighted risk.
We all suffer in one way or another. Me too. But that is life. Life is suffering. Without suffering, there wouldn’t be joy. And the balance here is important.
You are clearly suffering a lot.
I am suffering very little.
We do not have the same world view because of this. 🤷♂️ I don’t think this conversation will do either of us any good.
I said you are making the same type of argument in this situation just flavored differently.
You have already made it clear that your instincts come first, not the consent of the child who will suffer.
I’m not. It’s not about sex.
I wouldn’t have had kids if I thought they would suffer, obviously. You have kids with the hope and ambition, and belief that they will fare well. It took me years to build up the confidence in myself as an adult to even try to have kids.
No child can ever give consent. Does that mean we should also neuter all animals? tHeiR ofFsPrInG WiLl sUfFeR. Like where does this make sense? This is a fundamental necessity of life that you’re trying to talk out of somebody. It’s innate. If you don’t understand it, you don’t feel it. And we are at an explanatory impasse. That’s why we have to agree to disagree here and now.
No hard feelings. 🤝 But please stop acting like I’m some villain. Thanks.
I’m not acting like you are some villain. I am trying to test your logic.
It boils down to “BuT mUh InStInCtS”
But you did though! Your kids will suffer greatly! Suffering that they didn’t need to experience.
There is also the chance your child doesn’t fare well. Hope is useless, they will suffer from the oncoming changes to our climate I guarantee it. We all will if we don’t die before it happens.
Exactly! Now you are getting it! A child cannot give you consent from the void. So what do we do? We don’t procreate, because in the void there is no pain, no suffering. You do not exist. So we go along with OUR lives and not rip someone who may not want to be here cough me cough. What about asexual people? Are they not biologically human because they don’t have this “urge”? I thought this was instinctual so shouldn’t everyone feel this way? I surely don’t feel this need you keep rambling on about. Sex is different than having a child, I can have sex and not bring someone into suffering.
Yeah if I could end all suffering on the planet I absolutely would. Animals suffer just as much as we do if not more in some circumstances (meat industry, dairy industry, etc.). We breed so many animals as if they are fucking toys it is disgusting. Especially when there are plenty in shelters about to be put down. However there really isn’t talking to animals now is there. I am talking to people that can actually take steps to prevent suffering.
Also you seem to keep confusing the instinct of mating. Children are byproduct of that instinct, there is no instinct to reproduce. Please stop saying stuff you are confidently incorrect about.
I don’t know what you want to call this instinct, mating or reproduction, whatever. And just because it’s an instinct doesn’t mean everyone needs to have it, no.
It’s a strong urge for me to have children and love them. I would have more if I thought we had room and could afford it, but see? I’m resisting that because of circumstances. I don’t know what you want me to say other than that.
Like I said, I don’t think I can explain this to you. We are at an impasse.
Obviously I’m going to give my all to make my kids suffer as little as possible, just like almost every other animal. 🤷♂️ That’s what we parents all do, those of us with our heads on straight.
Like I said, we are not agreeing here and this is exhausting like I knew it would be. Let’s just agree to disagree. It’s probably best here. You’re not reaching out to me with this, I’ve heard it before and I agree to some extent, but I can’t help what I feel. And I can’t explain this to you.
I could’ve decided I wouldn’t have kids, but it would go against my feelings, and it would probably make me incompatible with the love of my life.
We have good circumstances. We live in a country that still has somewhat real democracy in our constitution. If anything, we’ll deal with food shortages and maybe war. We’re already dealing with dairy and meat shortages and we are eating alternatives yet living good. But perhaps our far descendants won’t have to deal with hardship. 🙂
I know you don’t believe in hope, but this is my attempt to spread some. Maybe it doesn’t work on someone who lives where you do or who’ve been shaped by life as you have, I don’t know your situation. If so, I’m sorry. We’re just different, and that’s okay.
Sending love.
I’m not arguing against having children and I’m not saying you’re a bad person. But logically, saying “I can’t help what I feel” is not a valid reason to inflict suffering onto other people in any context.
Similarly, I don’t want to fucking be alive anymore, but suicide is the action deemed “selfish”. But not the action of my parents to bring me into the world.
I’m not saying you in particular, but yes, fuck society, reproduction is selfish and cruel, and just because you feel the way you do doesn’t make it any less so.
I’m sorry for your children who may have to grow up in a doomed world. I hope they don’t. And I hope they don’t regret YOUR decision to give them life.
Alright.
I feel like this is driving a lot of your feelings in this matter, and I do want to be alive, so I cannot relate to your position, I think.
Some of us feel that being alive through hardship is worth it as long as we have each other to love and cherish. But of course, if those types of relationships are missing, or the hardship is too intense, it can be overpowering.
I hope you some day feel like you want to be alive. ❤️
Relating to my position is irrelevant. The core logic remains the same.
You may not think it, but the logical conclusion of your position is either
a.) it is okay to inflict suffering because I feel like it
Or
b.) I am not directly responsible for inflicting any suffering that my offspring goes through.
Or
c.) The quality of life I can provide for them supersedes/makes up for that suffering.
A is strictly wrong, B is wrong by my standards, and C is entirely subjective and is ultimately a question that you don’t really know the answer to and you just feel that way. See A.
But yes thank you I do not hope for any undue suffering in anyone’s life and I do not think that having children makes you due to suffer. But it is undoubtedly a selfish act in my book.
Alright. We disagree on b) and c).
The chance that my kids will suffer extraordinarily is small. And yes, it is a gamble, fair enough. People still do things even though there’s risk, because of the possibilities and weighted risk.
We all suffer in one way or another. Me too. But that is life. Life is suffering. Without suffering, there wouldn’t be joy. And the balance here is important.
You are clearly suffering a lot.
I am suffering very little.
We do not have the same world view because of this. 🤷♂️ I don’t think this conversation will do either of us any good.
The chance that your kids will suffer extraordinarily is… extremely high, actually. Are you a climate science denier?