Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination. What other than a death camp would you call Israelli detention facilities?
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.
Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying “You can’t call this thing that thing”.
You are doing the thing people are accusing you of; you are apologizing for genocide, not resisting it.
You again ignore that the “thing” I talk about is a “genocide”, which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.
You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.
No, its that you continue to insist that your “nuance” isn’t apoligism.
This isn’t a train station. No need to announce your departure. Everyone here can read your words and judge you for themselves, and they are, and they see you apologizing for genocide. You should take the time of your departure to mediate on why that might be.
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
No, I’m really not. You’re all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of “Israel” in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn’t relevant).
You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it’s not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.
You didn’t fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.
“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
Do you not understand colonialism? Of course you think history began on October 7th, 2023, but only when it concerns the actions of “Israelis”.
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one…
Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.
We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.
Wait… Are you saying that Israelis became the “nomad nation” and moved from country to country just for shits and giggles? That they left Israel because they wanted to, and not because the Persians persecuted them?
Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.
This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.
Notice the extreme difference here, between 77% and 14%. Even if East Germany’s de-nazification was probably not as thorough as it could and should have been due to practical concerns, it was still nothing like in the West. I’m saying this because I fully expect the “both sides did it” deflection from westerners (which is what the linked article is obviously trying to do in this quote). Notice also “senior officials” vs. “workers”.
I don’t disagree with your assessment that some kind of propaganda in support of zionism and maybe even genocide is happening. But if you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I personally just said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.
Edit: and to say “Germans have learned literally nothing from the Holocaust” is just ridiculous. You’re using false hyperbole to make Germans in general (who have very diverse political opinions individually!) seem like literal evil, and that simply helps no one except the ones that want us to fight.
The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it
Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of “Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back”.
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn’t make much sense to argue with you, so I’m going to stop.
You mean the outdated charter that has since been replaced to clarify opposition to the settler colonial state, rather than Jews as a whole?
Oh, yeah, that’s so much better. “We will keep fighting until we eliminate a country” is such a peaceful and lovable sentiment!
And there it is the Zionist blood libel against Palestinians and repeat of genocide propaganda.
The one you are referring to is the 1988 one written 50 years ago that immediately became irrelevant just a few years after it was written. It was and has been irrelevant since basically the beginning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter
edit: if it’s not clear, my tone isn’t meant to be debate or assholeish but genuine correction on that point, i just noticed that specific part from this thread and wanted to correct the record
How surprising, you’re doing Hasbara. The charter was irrelevant soon after it was written, Hamas changed many times very quickly throughout its history, and the charter you’re referring to was in fact literally replaced with a new one in 2017. You are a zionist.
No, you wouldn’t and you didn’t. The trick of “fighting back is their right but they’re doing it wrong” isn’t fooling anyone.
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn’t absolutely terrible, what I’m saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement. The genocide in Palestine is literally the same order of magnitude as the holocaust.
Then look up the term ‘lampshading’ and refer back to your original comment at the beginning of this thread.
Crying preemptively about how people are going to call you a nazi doesn’t make you any less of a nazi.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.
I’m not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.
I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called “pro genocide” for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called “Comparative Genocide Studies” which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.
Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
I think people attacking you as “pro-genocide” is exactly as reasonable as the German standard disallowing comparison of Nazism, which is funny.
The existence of a field of study which purports to compare genocide doesn’t validate your assertion that Israel is less evil than the third Reich. I still don’t think you can make this point.
The German law around speech comparing anything to Nazism sounds complex and subtle. I would argue that it’s a matter for the courts to decide, rather than for unqualified moderators to overcomply in advance.
If you are a coward then just don’t talk at all sbout Gaza and don’t defend zionism
I don’t think we can expect commenters to be as nuanced as an academic specializing in genocides.
On the legal front, it is to me morally obvious that that comment was pretty measured and deleting it was fucked. If you claim to do a fucked thing for legal reason, I think it’s fair to demand evidence that you are under legal duress. Is there a history of feddit specifically or german fedi sites.in general being hammered for “antisemitic” comments?
The answer to that would determines how much I am pissed at german authorities for misapplying the law or at feddit admins for being biased and/or cowards.
You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.
Removed by mod
What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can’t keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don’t elaborate further.
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
When do you think “Israelis” started committing genocide against Palestinians? Hint: “Israel” is a settler colony.
The current one? Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.
That’s a fair answer. And when was Hamas founded? By comparing those two dates, you can see that it’s actually the same as Jews fighting back against the Holocaust.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?
“Opposing genocide is the same as being MAGA because of vibes” is really incredible analysis, keep it up.
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
What genocides did Lenin commit? How was he a “dictator?” Do you have any idea what you’re talking about, or are you just saying things like this to avoid needing to have an actual point?
We have found the most historically literate feddit user.
Are you really denying that Lenin killed several millions of people?
Genocide is when you kill a bunch of people, apparently.
Yes. Further, genocide isn’t simply killing people, war isn’t necessarily genocide even if it results in millions of deaths.
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For example the genocide on the don cossacks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
and of course the whole Red Terror which killed several millions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror