I gravitate towards humanism instead of feminism even though I align with his the latter would be defined by many people.
In my younger years many feminists groups I ended up participating it, often from working together on protests or other issues under the progressive banner very violently anti-men.
Many actively thought all men were inherently bad and had no place in shared spaces. I remember walking out when one member whom I had worked along with for years and thought of as a close friend spoke of how she had heard a theory of how Genghis Khan was castrated by his wife and died. She thought this was a fitting end for a man and some others chimed in, in agreement. There was a general sense of othering men as an out group responsible for evil, rather than seeing most men and women as suffering under the system.
I don’t think most people are like this, I’m just illustrating why someone might think differently without being a ‘chud’.
Ah yes, I see trying to pigeon hole feminism because women who are abused don’t trust men.
The two are unrelated because women distrust men without feminism.
In respect to Genghis Khan, he was a mass murder and rapist of epic proportions. Not really a good example if you are trying to paint them as horrible people.
Feminism is an academic study of oppression and people who oppress men are not feminists. They are probably just women trying to cope in a patriarchy that abuses and suppresses them. Angry and upset about a world that steals their bodily autonomy and ignored their cries for help.
This comic is a mischaracterization of feminism. For one feminism studies was a catalyst for African American Women studies. The man in the beggining is definitely a chud and the comic is written from a chud perspective.
I’m going to be honest with you this comment sounds so condescending and patronizing. I’m not trying to pigeonhole feminism into anything. I’m trying to tell you what my specific experiences were with the disclaimer that it is not representative. I’m not from the US either.
Irrespective of who Genghis Khan is, I’ve never supported death penalty, much less torture. It made me uncomfortable to see how much people were willing to accommodate if it was against people who thought were the other. I’ve had a lot of violence visited on me unfortunately and I’m proud of the fact that even for people who abused me I would choose restorative justice rather than torture. Believe me it took a lot of work to get there.
It seems like you missed my whole point which was that based on what is described on paper I would be a feminist but I identify with a broader label because of my individual bad experience with a minority of people who opted to use the term. You don’t need to explain it to as if I’m an idiot?
Overall comes off as having no empathy for my experience or reality while shoehorning me into what appears to be very limited model of who you think I am? Feels kind of sad.
It was condensing as I am replying to and obviously anti-feminist post with a bunch of passive aggressive misogynists. This is normal as Lemmy is stocked full of insecure men.
I will get absolutely frank. You have some obvious issues with women that have nothing to do with this one group.
There is no restorative justice for someone who raped and murdered thousands of people in their lifetime. It is obvious you are ignorant to what he did. That is okay.
Just because you are enlightened enough to want your abuser to get fixed doesn’t mean someone else is. Also, considering we are talking about a historical figure it is kind of silly.
You are not a feminist. Have you studied feminism!? If you had you would recognize several red flags you carry around like a badge of honor. You would also see this cartoon as a mischaracterization and along the lines of micro aggression.
Were you abused by a woman? I could perhaps see where you are coming from if this is the case. Not that you are correct in your thinking, but understandable. The women you described earlier honestly need therapy once they are living in a society that isn’t actively abusing them.
I am glad you can recognize this one group were not your abusers. I am also hopeful that you will one day look at this cartoon and say, that is a bunch of bullshit. What the chud is clearly missing is feminism explores a deep dive into oppression.
Nothing he mentions actually makes any sense in this regard and it is disingenuous. The kind of half baked comment a man would have said back in the 1970’s in the US. 50 years later it is nothing more that anti-feminism rant ignoring the wealth of information research scientists have uncovered about culture.
I get the general defensiveness because of the prevalence of trolls.
There seems to some confusion. I’m not saying the cartoon is right. Just explaining why someone might prefer the term humanist over feminist even if they were not a ‘chud’. Is that so hard to see?
I’m absolutely not saying that someone like Genghis Khan could be rehabilitated. I’m not unaware of what he did and the contentious rehabilitation following Weatherford’s book and how perspectives have changed with later incorporation of historical narratives from China and Mongolia itself.
Let me be absolutely clear, I do not condone taking someone’s life or cutting off their balls as a way to punish in a justice system. We have Geneva convention now. Again I’m curious why is it anti-feminist to say that didn’t
Someone is not okay with inhumane punishment. I definitely do not want my own abusers to walk around free but I’m not advocating for them to be tortured using their reproductive organs or killed off.
I never said that anyone else should make peace or be okay with their abusers. You’re filling in some blanks here. Though at least I thought that an idea of justice that is outside personal revenge, but exists as a societal value to rehabilitate or punish justly without violating human rights would be accepted now.
I’m curious as to why you can authoritatively say I’m not aligned with feminism or that I have a laundry list of issues with women from two short pieces of text without knowing anything about me?
I am not sure why the humanist label is being treated as some kind of anti-feminist thing by you or the author of the cartoon. Is it one of those ‘All lives matter’ vs ‘Black lives matter’ situation in the US cultural context? In my cultural context, humanist is a label that is in the same category as atheist or agnostic without any negative connotations.
In fact it was seen as a superset that included feminist ideals and other intersectionalities such as disabilities, race and religion. Which was again why I said I agree with everything feminism says on paper but would like to use a broader term that covers intersectionalities that aren’t included in feminism but are relevant to me and because of my personal experiences with some well intentioned but misguided people wearing that label.
At the end of the day, what I’m getting from your comments is that people like me should not be participating in these discussions or are not welcome here.
Not so much trolls, just the majority of users. Most tech related forums are like this. Such is life.
Preferring humanist over feminist is kind of nonsensical. Feminism roots are in gender inequality and voting rights. Modern feminism (last 40 or so years) is focused on oppression theory and is the evolution of humanism in modern times.
It is like saying I prefer astronomer over astrophysicist. It doesn’t really make sense because they are different things from different times.
I never said it was anti-feminist to say you are against torture leading to murder (this of course did not actually happen in regards to Genghis and castration). In fact, feminism did not exist during the time of Ghenghis Khan nor did humanism.
Whenever examining history from a modern lense we should recognize the way we think and our motivations are significantly different from previous generations let alone several hundred years.
I said you were not a feminist. I am also not a feminist even though I have spent a lot of time at Uni and later on in my personal life studying it. I am what you would call an ally. If I am wrong about you, my apologies.
I am not an authority and yes I definitely filled in the blank. I am very good at guessing motivations, and as I said you showed some red flags right away with you story trying to conflate man-haters with feminism. This is such a common trope it shows your hand so to speak. If this was not your intention I understand.
I am sorry, but I did not mean to imply you said we should forgive abusers. I think a humanist perspective that looks towards rehabilitation and change rather than punishment is a great ideal. One that we are sorely lacking in modern times.
If you are not sure why a comic of a white male “man-splaining” something nonsensical to two women and then in the next panel the women having a conflict over race is offensive then I am not sure we view things as the same way.
As I pointed out it is a gross misrepresentation of modern feminism. Without humanism there wouldn’t have been feminism and without feminism we would not have gotten minority studies that revealed through research institutionalized racism.
This is a direct threat to the ruling class hence the constant lies and propaganda pushback feminism has received. So you if you have an issue with feminism please bring receipts because I am a passionate human being who has studied it for years and I have daughters and grandkids.
My daughters experienced sexual assault and I got to deal with the police and see how the modern system works. The pushback from the Metoo movement is intense with prosecutors, police officers, and judges using their discretion to perpetuate a system of blatant sexism. My cynical side says they are either rapists themselves or enablers.
You are going to get what you want to get. If you don’t feel welcomed to participate that is your decision. I am not a mod and I am not here to welcome anyone on a post that would attract the worst kind of people. I said my two cents and I often find myself getting involved when I should probably just walk away. It is a personal failing of mine.
Firstly I’m so sorry that your children experienced sexual assault. I wish them both justice and healing.
I typed up a long reply with references that I ended up deleting because it didn’t seem appropriate right now.
I have multiple genuine criticisms of feminism that come from actual feminist scholars about its interaction with the class and power structure, embedding of western imperialistic epistemology in it and others. None of it is because I’m opposed to equity or women’s rights. At the end of the day no philosophy is perfect and the actual practitioners are even less so. That is why it makes sense to talk about it and work on it.
I want to ask are you doing okay friend? It seems like you’re not.
I still have made only a singular point, that someone can prefer the label humanist over feminist despite agreeing with everything feminism might say without being a ‘chud’.
You have created strawman after strawman through this conversation, accusing me of conflating man haters with feminists, defending the sexual assault and genocide of Genghis Khan, diagnosing me as being ignorant of what humanism or feminism is, of not caring enough to study either, agreeing with white mansplaining, diagnosing me as having a litany of problems with women and being full of red flags and so on. I’ve tried to engage you from a place of good faith, even after the cruel remark of asking if I were sexually assaulted by women and trying to use that to frame me as a woman hater. You’re fighting something that isn’t there.
I left the original comment because I thought it might make you think that there are real people who don’t fit the categories that have become drivers of the culture war. It pays to listen to each other. Instead it seems like my comments have caused you unnecessary distress and I apologize for that.
I know it is a troll comment, but I think it’s a conversation starter on its own.
In any movement, including feminists, there are people struggling for equality and people willing to hijack the conversation to suit their needs. While the latter intentionally label themselves same as the former, they are not the same.
As long as the goal of a particular feminist is to create a more equal society (in this case - by removing the obstacles and dangers women specifically face in everyday life), I, as a man, am totally aligned.
However, there are certain people within the movement that serve much different politicized goals. Denying the rights of trans people. Starting gender wars to distract people from uniting over shared goals. Pretending they care about women when stripping away their reproductive rights or spreading disinformation about contraception. These people are here to support oppression, not liberate others.
Not a troll comment at all. The US is absolutely full of women haters. They lie about what feminism is constantly.
One of the ways they do this is by claiming individual that are clearly not feminist represent feminism. They point to ignorant men or women in a disingenuous attempt to discredit the movement based on perceived hypocrisy or just general misogyny.
Lemmy is absolutely stocked full of these type of fucks. This post is clearly anti-feminist under the guise of supposed social commentary.
Feminism is concerned with oppression of all people. It is almost like chuds shouldn’t comment on things they won’t understand.
I gravitate towards humanism instead of feminism even though I align with his the latter would be defined by many people.
In my younger years many feminists groups I ended up participating it, often from working together on protests or other issues under the progressive banner very violently anti-men.
Many actively thought all men were inherently bad and had no place in shared spaces. I remember walking out when one member whom I had worked along with for years and thought of as a close friend spoke of how she had heard a theory of how Genghis Khan was castrated by his wife and died. She thought this was a fitting end for a man and some others chimed in, in agreement. There was a general sense of othering men as an out group responsible for evil, rather than seeing most men and women as suffering under the system.
I don’t think most people are like this, I’m just illustrating why someone might think differently without being a ‘chud’.
Ah yes, I see trying to pigeon hole feminism because women who are abused don’t trust men.
The two are unrelated because women distrust men without feminism.
In respect to Genghis Khan, he was a mass murder and rapist of epic proportions. Not really a good example if you are trying to paint them as horrible people.
Feminism is an academic study of oppression and people who oppress men are not feminists. They are probably just women trying to cope in a patriarchy that abuses and suppresses them. Angry and upset about a world that steals their bodily autonomy and ignored their cries for help.
This comic is a mischaracterization of feminism. For one feminism studies was a catalyst for African American Women studies. The man in the beggining is definitely a chud and the comic is written from a chud perspective.
I’m going to be honest with you this comment sounds so condescending and patronizing. I’m not trying to pigeonhole feminism into anything. I’m trying to tell you what my specific experiences were with the disclaimer that it is not representative. I’m not from the US either.
Irrespective of who Genghis Khan is, I’ve never supported death penalty, much less torture. It made me uncomfortable to see how much people were willing to accommodate if it was against people who thought were the other. I’ve had a lot of violence visited on me unfortunately and I’m proud of the fact that even for people who abused me I would choose restorative justice rather than torture. Believe me it took a lot of work to get there.
It seems like you missed my whole point which was that based on what is described on paper I would be a feminist but I identify with a broader label because of my individual bad experience with a minority of people who opted to use the term. You don’t need to explain it to as if I’m an idiot?
Overall comes off as having no empathy for my experience or reality while shoehorning me into what appears to be very limited model of who you think I am? Feels kind of sad.
It was condensing as I am replying to and obviously anti-feminist post with a bunch of passive aggressive misogynists. This is normal as Lemmy is stocked full of insecure men.
I will get absolutely frank. You have some obvious issues with women that have nothing to do with this one group.
There is no restorative justice for someone who raped and murdered thousands of people in their lifetime. It is obvious you are ignorant to what he did. That is okay.
Just because you are enlightened enough to want your abuser to get fixed doesn’t mean someone else is. Also, considering we are talking about a historical figure it is kind of silly.
You are not a feminist. Have you studied feminism!? If you had you would recognize several red flags you carry around like a badge of honor. You would also see this cartoon as a mischaracterization and along the lines of micro aggression.
Were you abused by a woman? I could perhaps see where you are coming from if this is the case. Not that you are correct in your thinking, but understandable. The women you described earlier honestly need therapy once they are living in a society that isn’t actively abusing them.
I am glad you can recognize this one group were not your abusers. I am also hopeful that you will one day look at this cartoon and say, that is a bunch of bullshit. What the chud is clearly missing is feminism explores a deep dive into oppression.
Nothing he mentions actually makes any sense in this regard and it is disingenuous. The kind of half baked comment a man would have said back in the 1970’s in the US. 50 years later it is nothing more that anti-feminism rant ignoring the wealth of information research scientists have uncovered about culture.
I get the general defensiveness because of the prevalence of trolls.
There seems to some confusion. I’m not saying the cartoon is right. Just explaining why someone might prefer the term humanist over feminist even if they were not a ‘chud’. Is that so hard to see?
I’m absolutely not saying that someone like Genghis Khan could be rehabilitated. I’m not unaware of what he did and the contentious rehabilitation following Weatherford’s book and how perspectives have changed with later incorporation of historical narratives from China and Mongolia itself.
Let me be absolutely clear, I do not condone taking someone’s life or cutting off their balls as a way to punish in a justice system. We have Geneva convention now. Again I’m curious why is it anti-feminist to say that didn’t Someone is not okay with inhumane punishment. I definitely do not want my own abusers to walk around free but I’m not advocating for them to be tortured using their reproductive organs or killed off.
I never said that anyone else should make peace or be okay with their abusers. You’re filling in some blanks here. Though at least I thought that an idea of justice that is outside personal revenge, but exists as a societal value to rehabilitate or punish justly without violating human rights would be accepted now.
I’m curious as to why you can authoritatively say I’m not aligned with feminism or that I have a laundry list of issues with women from two short pieces of text without knowing anything about me?
I am not sure why the humanist label is being treated as some kind of anti-feminist thing by you or the author of the cartoon. Is it one of those ‘All lives matter’ vs ‘Black lives matter’ situation in the US cultural context? In my cultural context, humanist is a label that is in the same category as atheist or agnostic without any negative connotations.
In fact it was seen as a superset that included feminist ideals and other intersectionalities such as disabilities, race and religion. Which was again why I said I agree with everything feminism says on paper but would like to use a broader term that covers intersectionalities that aren’t included in feminism but are relevant to me and because of my personal experiences with some well intentioned but misguided people wearing that label.
At the end of the day, what I’m getting from your comments is that people like me should not be participating in these discussions or are not welcome here.
Not so much trolls, just the majority of users. Most tech related forums are like this. Such is life.
Preferring humanist over feminist is kind of nonsensical. Feminism roots are in gender inequality and voting rights. Modern feminism (last 40 or so years) is focused on oppression theory and is the evolution of humanism in modern times.
It is like saying I prefer astronomer over astrophysicist. It doesn’t really make sense because they are different things from different times.
I never said it was anti-feminist to say you are against torture leading to murder (this of course did not actually happen in regards to Genghis and castration). In fact, feminism did not exist during the time of Ghenghis Khan nor did humanism.
Whenever examining history from a modern lense we should recognize the way we think and our motivations are significantly different from previous generations let alone several hundred years.
I said you were not a feminist. I am also not a feminist even though I have spent a lot of time at Uni and later on in my personal life studying it. I am what you would call an ally. If I am wrong about you, my apologies.
I am not an authority and yes I definitely filled in the blank. I am very good at guessing motivations, and as I said you showed some red flags right away with you story trying to conflate man-haters with feminism. This is such a common trope it shows your hand so to speak. If this was not your intention I understand.
I am sorry, but I did not mean to imply you said we should forgive abusers. I think a humanist perspective that looks towards rehabilitation and change rather than punishment is a great ideal. One that we are sorely lacking in modern times.
If you are not sure why a comic of a white male “man-splaining” something nonsensical to two women and then in the next panel the women having a conflict over race is offensive then I am not sure we view things as the same way.
As I pointed out it is a gross misrepresentation of modern feminism. Without humanism there wouldn’t have been feminism and without feminism we would not have gotten minority studies that revealed through research institutionalized racism.
This is a direct threat to the ruling class hence the constant lies and propaganda pushback feminism has received. So you if you have an issue with feminism please bring receipts because I am a passionate human being who has studied it for years and I have daughters and grandkids.
My daughters experienced sexual assault and I got to deal with the police and see how the modern system works. The pushback from the Metoo movement is intense with prosecutors, police officers, and judges using their discretion to perpetuate a system of blatant sexism. My cynical side says they are either rapists themselves or enablers.
You are going to get what you want to get. If you don’t feel welcomed to participate that is your decision. I am not a mod and I am not here to welcome anyone on a post that would attract the worst kind of people. I said my two cents and I often find myself getting involved when I should probably just walk away. It is a personal failing of mine.
Firstly I’m so sorry that your children experienced sexual assault. I wish them both justice and healing.
I typed up a long reply with references that I ended up deleting because it didn’t seem appropriate right now.
I have multiple genuine criticisms of feminism that come from actual feminist scholars about its interaction with the class and power structure, embedding of western imperialistic epistemology in it and others. None of it is because I’m opposed to equity or women’s rights. At the end of the day no philosophy is perfect and the actual practitioners are even less so. That is why it makes sense to talk about it and work on it.
I want to ask are you doing okay friend? It seems like you’re not.
I still have made only a singular point, that someone can prefer the label humanist over feminist despite agreeing with everything feminism might say without being a ‘chud’. You have created strawman after strawman through this conversation, accusing me of conflating man haters with feminists, defending the sexual assault and genocide of Genghis Khan, diagnosing me as being ignorant of what humanism or feminism is, of not caring enough to study either, agreeing with white mansplaining, diagnosing me as having a litany of problems with women and being full of red flags and so on. I’ve tried to engage you from a place of good faith, even after the cruel remark of asking if I were sexually assaulted by women and trying to use that to frame me as a woman hater. You’re fighting something that isn’t there.
I left the original comment because I thought it might make you think that there are real people who don’t fit the categories that have become drivers of the culture war. It pays to listen to each other. Instead it seems like my comments have caused you unnecessary distress and I apologize for that.
I know it is a troll comment, but I think it’s a conversation starter on its own.
In any movement, including feminists, there are people struggling for equality and people willing to hijack the conversation to suit their needs. While the latter intentionally label themselves same as the former, they are not the same.
As long as the goal of a particular feminist is to create a more equal society (in this case - by removing the obstacles and dangers women specifically face in everyday life), I, as a man, am totally aligned.
However, there are certain people within the movement that serve much different politicized goals. Denying the rights of trans people. Starting gender wars to distract people from uniting over shared goals. Pretending they care about women when stripping away their reproductive rights or spreading disinformation about contraception. These people are here to support oppression, not liberate others.
Not a troll comment at all. The US is absolutely full of women haters. They lie about what feminism is constantly.
One of the ways they do this is by claiming individual that are clearly not feminist represent feminism. They point to ignorant men or women in a disingenuous attempt to discredit the movement based on perceived hypocrisy or just general misogyny.
Lemmy is absolutely stocked full of these type of fucks. This post is clearly anti-feminist under the guise of supposed social commentary.