People want easy solutions, like “Have more people be born smart” instead of hard, complex, realistic ones like “Put time, effort, and resources into robust education of the population in stable familial and social environments to develop higher averages of generally recognized metrics of intelligence in the general population”
There was already a precedent for all this. After the Second World War, American jumped right into the Cold War with the Russians and wanted to take the lead in science, technology, rocketry, space and engineering. They quickly realized that their country at the time was ill equiped and not well trained or educated for all this … so they took the shortcut of using former Nazis to head their science and technology fields for a few years. Then to take up the slack, the government heavily invested in education and training to pump out the scientists, engineers and professionals they needed to gear up their technological war with the Soviets.
So the 50s, 60s, and 70s got filled with a lot of bright well trained, well educated and informed young people. They were able to power the American war machine but a side effect to all that was all these insightful young people became the backbone of a counter culture that fought against war, capitalism, inequality, conservatism and racism and supported black rights, Native rights, women’s rights, minority rights, animal rights and environmentalism.
Then they had to bring in people like Reagan and Thatcher to reign in these counter culture movements and swing the pendulum back again. Once they defeated the Soviets in the Cold War, conservative America had all the incentive to break everything down again and dumb down the population until it was a just a compliant pulp that could elect a clown.
Using former Nazis wasn’t because there was a shortage of educated people in general in the US after WW2. The vast majority of Nazi scientists who made major contributions to US progress (or Soviet progress, for that matter), were in rocketry, which the Nazis put disproportionate effort and funding into.
Agreed … but in order for the US to push through their rocket program, they needed scientists and researchers to develop, test, build, test, retest, and test some more all of the applied science that had been developed. The country needed to build an entire community of thousands of professionally trained technicians, scientists, engineers, professionals … and with them had to come teams of administrators, academics, trainers, bureaucrats, office workers … and with all of them had to come entire groups of trained builders, workers, electricians, plumbers, draftsmen, planners and all the people that came with … and all that had to be supported by an industry that needed to build and develop all the things that had to be needed to get this monolith moving, which meant that all these corporations and businesses needed their own teams of professionally trained people.
It was a massive investment in education in order to get the ball rolling in industry to build the rocket program. It wasn’t just building rockets … it was building an entire industry upon industry upon industry to get to the point of building a single rocket that could launch anything into orbit.
The reason why any of it happened was that the government heavily invested in educating and training an entire population to make it all possible.
Your analysis is spot on. (most of my career has been in aerospace)
I would also add that the training programs and apprenticeships that were developed have been gutted as they destroyed the unions.
The whole rebuilding American manufacturing through tariffs is a total pipe dream. I’m one of the few machinists that stuck through the great recession in my generation. There are no where near enough people like me to train kids and the guys that taught me are dead.
It takes minimum, four years, to grow a self-sufficent machinist on the job. Trade schools are pretty much worthless, kids come out of trade school and they’re fit to sweep floors or maybe punch a button if they’re real sharp.
It would take twenty years of consistent government and corporate support to rebuild and we all they are too greedy and short sighted for that.
I always respect and look forward to your opinion. You are a great contributor to Lemmy and I always learn something new from everything you share here.
The US literally beat the Nazis to developing fission technology, i.e. nukes (admittedly with a very international research community). It’s quite clear just from that, that the US had plenty of strong scientists before they brought in Nazis/Nazi collaborators from overseas.
As a complete side note: I believe it’s been speculated (by people who know much more about this than me) that Nazi research on nukes, among other things, was hampered by researchers like Heisenberg deliberately dragging their feet because they were forced to work on the projects but didn’t believe in the cause. I’m not meaning to clear the name of any Nazi collaborators, but pointing out that not all scientists working under the Nazi regime were necessarily nazis.
Nuke and atomic technology was one thing … and the Americans basically had that in their pocket regardless if they had Nazi scientists or not
The big leap that the Americans made with Nazi scientists was to pair atomic technology with ballistic missile technology.
When you just have a bomb and you need a big slow moving aircraft to deliver the bomb, then it is almost useless as there are plenty of ways to take down a jet in mid flight before it even reaches a target.
The unholy match that humanity came up with was to pair nuclear weapons with missile technology … which created a weapon that is nearly unstoppable and completely dangerous for all of humanity.
People want easy solutions, like “Have more people be born smart” instead of hard, complex, realistic ones like “Put time, effort, and resources into robust education of the population in stable familial and social environments to develop higher averages of generally recognized metrics of intelligence in the general population”
There was already a precedent for all this. After the Second World War, American jumped right into the Cold War with the Russians and wanted to take the lead in science, technology, rocketry, space and engineering. They quickly realized that their country at the time was ill equiped and not well trained or educated for all this … so they took the shortcut of using former Nazis to head their science and technology fields for a few years. Then to take up the slack, the government heavily invested in education and training to pump out the scientists, engineers and professionals they needed to gear up their technological war with the Soviets.
So the 50s, 60s, and 70s got filled with a lot of bright well trained, well educated and informed young people. They were able to power the American war machine but a side effect to all that was all these insightful young people became the backbone of a counter culture that fought against war, capitalism, inequality, conservatism and racism and supported black rights, Native rights, women’s rights, minority rights, animal rights and environmentalism.
Then they had to bring in people like Reagan and Thatcher to reign in these counter culture movements and swing the pendulum back again. Once they defeated the Soviets in the Cold War, conservative America had all the incentive to break everything down again and dumb down the population until it was a just a compliant pulp that could elect a clown.
Using former Nazis wasn’t because there was a shortage of educated people in general in the US after WW2. The vast majority of Nazi scientists who made major contributions to US progress (or Soviet progress, for that matter), were in rocketry, which the Nazis put disproportionate effort and funding into.
Agreed … but in order for the US to push through their rocket program, they needed scientists and researchers to develop, test, build, test, retest, and test some more all of the applied science that had been developed. The country needed to build an entire community of thousands of professionally trained technicians, scientists, engineers, professionals … and with them had to come teams of administrators, academics, trainers, bureaucrats, office workers … and with all of them had to come entire groups of trained builders, workers, electricians, plumbers, draftsmen, planners and all the people that came with … and all that had to be supported by an industry that needed to build and develop all the things that had to be needed to get this monolith moving, which meant that all these corporations and businesses needed their own teams of professionally trained people.
It was a massive investment in education in order to get the ball rolling in industry to build the rocket program. It wasn’t just building rockets … it was building an entire industry upon industry upon industry to get to the point of building a single rocket that could launch anything into orbit.
The reason why any of it happened was that the government heavily invested in educating and training an entire population to make it all possible.
Your analysis is spot on. (most of my career has been in aerospace)
I would also add that the training programs and apprenticeships that were developed have been gutted as they destroyed the unions.
The whole rebuilding American manufacturing through tariffs is a total pipe dream. I’m one of the few machinists that stuck through the great recession in my generation. There are no where near enough people like me to train kids and the guys that taught me are dead.
It takes minimum, four years, to grow a self-sufficent machinist on the job. Trade schools are pretty much worthless, kids come out of trade school and they’re fit to sweep floors or maybe punch a button if they’re real sharp.
It would take twenty years of consistent government and corporate support to rebuild and we all they are too greedy and short sighted for that.
I assume it is similar for a lot of other trades.
Oh yes, I strongly agree with all that. Just felt the need to nitpick that the contribution of Nazi scientists was relatively narrow.
I always respect and look forward to your opinion. You are a great contributor to Lemmy and I always learn something new from everything you share here.
The US literally beat the Nazis to developing fission technology, i.e. nukes (admittedly with a very international research community). It’s quite clear just from that, that the US had plenty of strong scientists before they brought in Nazis/Nazi collaborators from overseas.
As a complete side note: I believe it’s been speculated (by people who know much more about this than me) that Nazi research on nukes, among other things, was hampered by researchers like Heisenberg deliberately dragging their feet because they were forced to work on the projects but didn’t believe in the cause. I’m not meaning to clear the name of any Nazi collaborators, but pointing out that not all scientists working under the Nazi regime were necessarily nazis.
Nuke and atomic technology was one thing … and the Americans basically had that in their pocket regardless if they had Nazi scientists or not
The big leap that the Americans made with Nazi scientists was to pair atomic technology with ballistic missile technology.
When you just have a bomb and you need a big slow moving aircraft to deliver the bomb, then it is almost useless as there are plenty of ways to take down a jet in mid flight before it even reaches a target.
The unholy match that humanity came up with was to pair nuclear weapons with missile technology … which created a weapon that is nearly unstoppable and completely dangerous for all of humanity.
more like rich and powerful people want stupid masses
stop blaming these issues on individuals when the whole system is setup to fuck them into this mess
anymore than individuals can fix our plastics or fossil fuel issues