As a reasonably unattractive middle aged man, I do wish that some of the people in my workplace wouldn’t wear low necklines. I am fully aware that I’m not supposed to look and that my eyes aren’t the target of the clothing choices. I think it’s very rare indeed that I do look, but I can’t help but notice, ALL THE TIME I’m interacting with whoever it is. I find it very distracting and would rather not be distracted from the issue at hand. What I look at is under my conscious control, but my sexuality isn’t.
Someone in the comments mentioned that men should know not to stare from simple polite social etiquette. Yes. I know this. I live this. But if you’re talking social etiquette, I think you have to accept that it’s possible to be inappropriately dressed for the workplace. Wear whatever you like while you’re out in the evening, out in the street, out shopping, but while we’re at work, while I have no choice over who I interact with or for how long, please dress in a less distracting way.
Sorry if that makes you feel objectified or controlled, and I don’t want to make anyone unhappy, but also I don’t want to spend our planning meeting trying to ignore your breats.
As a woman I agree 100%… but, as a woman with huge breats anything that is not a turtle neck ends up being a low neckline. I think even with a turtle neck men would check my boobs. It’s a curse
Not that I know. I need glasses to see and sometimes I’m laying in bed, without glasses and can’t see If I make a mistake. Lot’s of my posts have spelling mistakes because I can’t really see what I’m writing lol.
Also, because of my nails, sometimes I select the wrong letter. It’s a real daily strugle
Would be nice if designers put out practical clothes. Clothes shopping is a massive pain for someone looking for more conservative look, cheap, and not look like a grandma. Don’t make fun of women wearing sweater all the time in summer cause it may be needes it to cover the clothes.
I honestly don’t understand why this issue can’t just be resolved with dress codes. God forbid in high school someone wear a shoulder strap not at least three fingers wide, but wearing a cardigan with a neckline down to your navel at the office as formal attire is somehow deemed socially acceptable lmao
Ours says something like “Formal suits and ties are not required, but colleages should be dressed appropriately for the workplace, and whether you are customer facing or not, you should not dress inappropriately casually.” which is nice because I find ties uncomfortable, but there’s a grey area a mile wide there that I would rather there weren’t.
In practice, this means that crocs, shorts, mini skirts, loud shirts and crop tops all get called out by the boss, but he seems no more willing than I am to call out a low neckline in public, and I don’t know whether that’s because he doesn’t mind, doesn’t care, didn’t like getting criticised in the past for noticing, or secretly likes low necklines.
I’m certainly not bringing it up in AOB any year soon. I’ve overheard the “well you shouldn’t have been looking” conversion enough in the past to know how some folk react to bring asked to tone it down somewhat.
There is a difference between looking/noticing and staring in my opinion.
It is also important to think about how choices over what one wears are driven by many factors, not just a desire to have people look at you. I think many women (especially younger women) have been made to feel that they must wear revealing clothing to fit in or be cool, so it isn’t really so simple as just an invitation for men to stare.
As for why men should not stare, it is because the male gaze (everyone’s gaze really) has power and affects people’s emotions, and it is worthwhile to care about how other people feel and not do something that would make a large portion of people feel uncomfortable such as staring at someone’s cleavage. Basically, it is impolite.
Is there? The only thing considered weird is staring at people who you are not having a conversation with. People can stare at shoes and check them out. People stare at everything other people mean to show off. Clothes exist to hide the things people do not want to show.
So if women want to wear clothes showing off their breasts then I am quite certain they want people to look at those breasts. So then why should people suddenly not look at them?
Well, yeah. Complimenting someones biceps is also a fairly normal thing to do. But not breasts One is sexual. The other is not. The more sexual the compliment gets the more inappropriate. Further reinforcing the point that breasts are sexual.
Of course everyone knows they are sexual. Making this whole dance around the subject a bit ridiculous.
I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make, staring at someone’s bicep is also creepy. No-one’s saying “you may not ever look at breasts” the staring is the issue.
As a man, when l run shirtless it’s not because I want to show off my chest, it’s because I’m hot and it’s practical. Depending on the temperature in and around the workplace, something with less coverage may be more comfortable.
Yes, there is a difference between staring and looking, in so far as those terms are commonly used in american english:
From Oxford Languages via Google:
Stare: look fixedly or vacantly at someone or something with one’s eyes wide open
Look: direct one’s gaze toward someone or something or in a specified direction
So “staring” means looking fixedly or vacantly. This takes “looking” to a different place because it implies your thoughts are lingering on the thing you are staring at, which in the case of cleavage would be sexually suggestive (and therefore could make someone uncomfortable). It’s not too far off from catcalling in my opinion. It is much less sexually suggestive to stare at someone’s shoes or a cool hat, so clearly the context of staring is important as to whether it is offensive.
Also, you seem to have missed an important part of my earlier response:
It is also important to think about how choices over what one wears are driven by many factors, not just a desire to have people look at you. I think many women (especially younger women) have been made to feel that they must wear revealing clothing to fit in or be cool, so it isn’t really so simple as just an invitation for men to stare.
This is why I don’t think that it is accurate to say:
So if women want to wear clothes showing off their breasts then I am quite certain they want people to look at those breasts.
Sadly, my peripheral vision is garbage. But still, I don’t stare.
Well, I do stare, but that’s because I’m dissociating down an ADHD train of thought completely unrelated to the person who happens to be in my line of sight at the time, not actually looking at anything.
Try moving your vision, not your eye, to the bottom when it’s dark. You can learn to see in the dark pretty easily, and with practice you can focus and split your attention within your field of vision
There is limited space where I can put my eyesight at, and your breasts took up half of them by dressing in a revealing way.
You can’t expose your breasts then blame guys for starring. There are twenty pairs of breasts in the meeting room. It’s gonna be one pair of another. It’s your responsibility to protect your breasts as well.
As a reasonably unattractive middle aged man, I do wish that some of the people in my workplace wouldn’t wear low necklines. I am fully aware that I’m not supposed to look and that my eyes aren’t the target of the clothing choices. I think it’s very rare indeed that I do look, but I can’t help but notice, ALL THE TIME I’m interacting with whoever it is. I find it very distracting and would rather not be distracted from the issue at hand. What I look at is under my conscious control, but my sexuality isn’t.
Someone in the comments mentioned that men should know not to stare from simple polite social etiquette. Yes. I know this. I live this. But if you’re talking social etiquette, I think you have to accept that it’s possible to be inappropriately dressed for the workplace. Wear whatever you like while you’re out in the evening, out in the street, out shopping, but while we’re at work, while I have no choice over who I interact with or for how long, please dress in a less distracting way.
Sorry if that makes you feel objectified or controlled, and I don’t want to make anyone unhappy, but also I don’t want to spend our planning meeting trying to ignore your breats.
Gay guy with literally 0% attraction to women. Trust me, if I liked them even a little, my adolescence would have be infinitely easier.
When a woman has big boobs that are hanging out, I can’t help but look at them. I am actively trying to avoid them, but I can’t.
I can’t explain this, but sometimes I compare it to not being able to look away from a trainwreck.
poor smithers
As a woman I agree 100%… but, as a woman with huge breats anything that is not a turtle neck ends up being a low neckline. I think even with a turtle neck men would check my boobs. It’s a curse
You are the second person in this thread to spell “breats.” Is this a new colloquialism I’m unaware of?
Not that I know. I need glasses to see and sometimes I’m laying in bed, without glasses and can’t see If I make a mistake. Lot’s of my posts have spelling mistakes because I can’t really see what I’m writing lol.
Also, because of my nails, sometimes I select the wrong letter. It’s a real daily strugle
I also wrote “thing” above and just noticed now.
Would be nice if designers put out practical clothes. Clothes shopping is a massive pain for someone looking for more conservative look, cheap, and not look like a grandma. Don’t make fun of women wearing sweater all the time in summer cause it may be needes it to cover the clothes.
Maybe some kind of uniburka. Gender and facial expression have no relevance in the workplace. It could even have a couple usb ports.
I honestly don’t understand why this issue can’t just be resolved with dress codes. God forbid in high school someone wear a shoulder strap not at least three fingers wide, but wearing a cardigan with a neckline down to your navel at the office as formal attire is somehow deemed socially acceptable lmao
Ours says something like “Formal suits and ties are not required, but colleages should be dressed appropriately for the workplace, and whether you are customer facing or not, you should not dress inappropriately casually.” which is nice because I find ties uncomfortable, but there’s a grey area a mile wide there that I would rather there weren’t.
In practice, this means that crocs, shorts, mini skirts, loud shirts and crop tops all get called out by the boss, but he seems no more willing than I am to call out a low neckline in public, and I don’t know whether that’s because he doesn’t mind, doesn’t care, didn’t like getting criticised in the past for noticing, or secretly likes low necklines.
I’m certainly not bringing it up in AOB any year soon. I’ve overheard the “well you shouldn’t have been looking” conversion enough in the past to know how some folk react to bring asked to tone it down somewhat.
Why should men not stare at things women are intentionally showing them?
There is a difference between looking/noticing and staring in my opinion.
It is also important to think about how choices over what one wears are driven by many factors, not just a desire to have people look at you. I think many women (especially younger women) have been made to feel that they must wear revealing clothing to fit in or be cool, so it isn’t really so simple as just an invitation for men to stare.
As for why men should not stare, it is because the male gaze (everyone’s gaze really) has power and affects people’s emotions, and it is worthwhile to care about how other people feel and not do something that would make a large portion of people feel uncomfortable such as staring at someone’s cleavage. Basically, it is impolite.
Is there? The only thing considered weird is staring at people who you are not having a conversation with. People can stare at shoes and check them out. People stare at everything other people mean to show off. Clothes exist to hide the things people do not want to show.
So if women want to wear clothes showing off their breasts then I am quite certain they want people to look at those breasts. So then why should people suddenly not look at them?
I’m curious about your shoe example. I would feel perfectly comfortable complimenting someone’s shoes and asking about them, for example:
“I love your shoes, those stripes on the side are funky, where did you get them?” Seems like a relatively normal conversation.
However, “I love your tits, the way your nips poke out is awesome, were you born with them?” Seems inappropriate.
Do you not see any distinction here?
Well, yeah. Complimenting someones biceps is also a fairly normal thing to do. But not breasts One is sexual. The other is not. The more sexual the compliment gets the more inappropriate. Further reinforcing the point that breasts are sexual.
Of course everyone knows they are sexual. Making this whole dance around the subject a bit ridiculous.
I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make, staring at someone’s bicep is also creepy. No-one’s saying “you may not ever look at breasts” the staring is the issue.
As a man, when l run shirtless it’s not because I want to show off my chest, it’s because I’m hot and it’s practical. Depending on the temperature in and around the workplace, something with less coverage may be more comfortable.
Yes, there is a difference between staring and looking, in so far as those terms are commonly used in american english:
From Oxford Languages via Google: Stare: look fixedly or vacantly at someone or something with one’s eyes wide open Look: direct one’s gaze toward someone or something or in a specified direction So “staring” means looking fixedly or vacantly. This takes “looking” to a different place because it implies your thoughts are lingering on the thing you are staring at, which in the case of cleavage would be sexually suggestive (and therefore could make someone uncomfortable). It’s not too far off from catcalling in my opinion. It is much less sexually suggestive to stare at someone’s shoes or a cool hat, so clearly the context of staring is important as to whether it is offensive.
Also, you seem to have missed an important part of my earlier response:
This is why I don’t think that it is accurate to say:
Well, they want certain people to stare at thier breasts, not others.
Inb4 the difference between glancing and staring is how attractive the guy is
It’s really not. It’s the amount of time and frequency, and also how much you’re treating them like a person
And does no one else know how to look out the corner of your eye?
Sadly, my peripheral vision is garbage. But still, I don’t stare.
Well, I do stare, but that’s because I’m dissociating down an ADHD train of thought completely unrelated to the person who happens to be in my line of sight at the time, not actually looking at anything.
That would be the staring vacantly part of the description above, I think?
Try moving your vision, not your eye, to the bottom when it’s dark. You can learn to see in the dark pretty easily, and with practice you can focus and split your attention within your field of vision
It’s actually a degenerative eye condition called cone-rod dystrophy. My night vision is also garbage because of it.
Bravo. Well said.
There is limited space where I can put my eyesight at, and your breasts took up half of them by dressing in a revealing way.
You can’t expose your breasts then blame guys for starring. There are twenty pairs of breasts in the meeting room. It’s gonna be one pair of another. It’s your responsibility to protect your breasts as well.
Forehead, shoulder, shoulder, rotate as necessary.
The last bit of this sounds rapey as fuck.
I feel like this is the first step towards women being forced to wear hijabs.
You could say the same about having to cover genitals.
I do often feel oppressed living in a society where I’m not allowed to walk around naked outdoors on a hot day.
I feel like you blew my point completely out of proportion, out of context, and out of the world of reasonable debating points.