There are scientific studies which show that parents are overall less happy than adults without kids.
Of course parents still do a lot of stuff but it’s because most of the time it’s even more stressful to stay at home with the kids. And as you noticed it’s stuff mainly for the kids. Of course some things parents can enjoy as well. But the main thing about being a parent is that you can’t just do what YOU what, especially not spontaneously.
And the post was about vibe and chill, which is definitely something parents do a lot less than they would like to.
Sure, I think I can find studies that affirms my biases too if I really want to.
Personally, I don’t believe that parents are so miserable and childless people are so happy. Maybe at some stage in life that can be measured to be objectively true, but longterm, dude, I think the parents win the happiness lottery if the childless people choose to never move on from their 20s and grow up and take part in their community.
I invest time and money into my nieces and nephews and into my friends’ kids too. Because they are family and I care about them and their parents and it gives me joy to know that I’m a part of something either directly or indirectly, depending on circumstances. I do it because I know that there is also a day after tomorrow where I would become alone and forgotten and have no one to lean on if I don’t contribute and invest anything into the future, which in this case it other people’s children.
At some point, we have to remember that the world is bigger than ourselves and if we only invest in ourselves our whole lives, we will end up very very very alone.
You went too hard in the other direction. Sure parents aren’t miserable, but studies do show childless adults are happier. Maybe they’re less fulfilled? That’s hard to say if you never wanted kids. Also you can enjoy being around friends and make their lives better and invest in your community, not like kids, and still be very fulfilled. If you don’t enjoy kids that doesn’t impact your life negatively unless you don’t understand how to be happy on your own.
Most happiness indices use flawed methodology. I wouldn’t take them too seriously.
Having a child requires more planning for sure. Spontaneity is certainly fun but I do think that the ability to plan ahead is part of what rounds us out as adults.
I vibe and chill every night with my wife after the kids are asleep at 8. If we want to go out they stay with the grandparents.
Can you be as spontaneous as your were in college or as a young uncommited professional? Not really. But with a little planning you can still have your fun.
I acknowledge a lot of this comes down to finances and how functional your family is and so may not be feasible for many people. But I do want to gently push back at the idea that ideas of individuality, self-actualization etc must be deferred because of children.
You need a community to make it work and the problem is many people have less and less of that these days.
Is it wealth? Is it things owned? Is the happiness a serial hoarder feels when they get a new thing the same as the happiness of seeing your first child born?
I’m starting to think we’ve gone too far when it comes to validating feelings.
I guess you just ask someone how happy they are in general.
Edit: I found the study (see my other response) and they used this:
To assess life satisfaction, respondents were asked, “All things considered, how satisfied are you with your life as a whole these days?” They were asked to indicate their satisfaction with life using an 11-point scale ranging from 0 (dissatisfied) to 10 (satisfied). This measure has been shown to have appropriate external validity and has been widely used in cross-cultural studies of life satisfaction
You have a society that really likes ultra processed food. I mean really likes ultra processed food, to the point of addiction. There are other things that society is addicted to, but we’ll fixate on food for now.
Let’s say you take ultra processed food away from that society. Or any other harmful addictive thing. What do you think happens to their overall satisfaction in life?
It is the objectively correct decision (at least before enough regulations are put in place that ‘ultra processed’ doesn’t also mean ‘packed with chemicals’). Let’s say you assess life satisfaction after an event like this. What would their answers be? Would they be true or would they just be the thrashings of addicts?
My point is that I think if you ask a heroin addict if they’re satisfied with life, their answer will depend on how long it’s been since a needle has gone in their arm. I don’t think the average person is actually capable of guaging their level of satisfaction in life, not to say that the average person is a heroin addict.
I don’t think the average person is actually capable of guaging their level of satisfaction in life
One could argue they’re the only ones who can gauge it.
But there’s definitely a struggle to separate the symptoms of happiness from the conditions of happiness.
Like, if happiness is just a chemical, then OD on it and you’ve successfully maximized the raw score. But if you asked someone in advance if that’s how they want to live their lives, I don’t think you’d get many eager for it.
No sorry, but I remember that in scandinavian countries the difference in happiness was much less, because raising children there is more seen as a societal task and less as the sole responsibility of the parents.
tending to be more negative for parents facing more challenging conditions
I think the above point of the study is key. If you are already facing significant challenges in life (economic, psychological, physical, etc), adding kids is not going to make it any easier, and might make things worse. I know it’s anecdotal but I’m personally pretty satisfied with my life, and that’s continued to grow alongside my kids. But as I mentioned in my previous comment, I have the resources and support I need to make that happen. I also live in a country that provides a lot more support to families than somewhere like the US. Not going to say having kids is all muffins, puppies, and unicorn farts all the time. But it’s been fulfilling to me, and if I had to go back and do it all again with my kids, I absolutely would.
Nice. Thank you. Even better, it’s a free study.
But instead of showing the coefficient of the model they derived, I would have shown figures 1 & 2 which are riveting to me.
parents are overall less happy than adults without kids
Higher levels of stress, less money in the bank, fewer hours of sleep, yadda yadda. You could say the same thing about people who start their own businesses or take up a career in politics or do literally anything that’s taxing on the human body and mind.
Want to know how to live a truly carefree lifestyle? Take up heroin. Folks in an opiate haze are consistently ranked some of the happiest on earth.
And the post was about vibe and chill
It’s this sort of weird backhanded brag that tries to make a virtue out of self-indulgence. Might as well go full Gordon Geeko with it if you’re this far in.
There are scientific studies which show that parents are overall less happy than adults without kids.
Of course parents still do a lot of stuff but it’s because most of the time it’s even more stressful to stay at home with the kids. And as you noticed it’s stuff mainly for the kids. Of course some things parents can enjoy as well. But the main thing about being a parent is that you can’t just do what YOU what, especially not spontaneously.
And the post was about vibe and chill, which is definitely something parents do a lot less than they would like to.
Sure, I think I can find studies that affirms my biases too if I really want to.
Personally, I don’t believe that parents are so miserable and childless people are so happy. Maybe at some stage in life that can be measured to be objectively true, but longterm, dude, I think the parents win the happiness lottery if the childless people choose to never move on from their 20s and grow up and take part in their community. I invest time and money into my nieces and nephews and into my friends’ kids too. Because they are family and I care about them and their parents and it gives me joy to know that I’m a part of something either directly or indirectly, depending on circumstances. I do it because I know that there is also a day after tomorrow where I would become alone and forgotten and have no one to lean on if I don’t contribute and invest anything into the future, which in this case it other people’s children.
At some point, we have to remember that the world is bigger than ourselves and if we only invest in ourselves our whole lives, we will end up very very very alone.
You went too hard in the other direction. Sure parents aren’t miserable, but studies do show childless adults are happier. Maybe they’re less fulfilled? That’s hard to say if you never wanted kids. Also you can enjoy being around friends and make their lives better and invest in your community, not like kids, and still be very fulfilled. If you don’t enjoy kids that doesn’t impact your life negatively unless you don’t understand how to be happy on your own.
Most happiness indices use flawed methodology. I wouldn’t take them too seriously.
Having a child requires more planning for sure. Spontaneity is certainly fun but I do think that the ability to plan ahead is part of what rounds us out as adults.
I vibe and chill every night with my wife after the kids are asleep at 8. If we want to go out they stay with the grandparents.
Can you be as spontaneous as your were in college or as a young uncommited professional? Not really. But with a little planning you can still have your fun.
I acknowledge a lot of this comes down to finances and how functional your family is and so may not be feasible for many people. But I do want to gently push back at the idea that ideas of individuality, self-actualization etc must be deferred because of children.
You need a community to make it work and the problem is many people have less and less of that these days.
By what metric do we judge happiness?
Is it wealth? Is it things owned? Is the happiness a serial hoarder feels when they get a new thing the same as the happiness of seeing your first child born?
I’m starting to think we’ve gone too far when it comes to validating feelings.
I guess you just ask someone how happy they are in general.
Edit: I found the study (see my other response) and they used this:
To assess life satisfaction, respondents were asked, “All things considered, how satisfied are you with your life as a whole these days?” They were asked to indicate their satisfaction with life using an 11-point scale ranging from 0 (dissatisfied) to 10 (satisfied). This measure has been shown to have appropriate external validity and has been widely used in cross-cultural studies of life satisfaction
Ok, let me create a separate hypothetical:
You have a society that really likes ultra processed food. I mean really likes ultra processed food, to the point of addiction. There are other things that society is addicted to, but we’ll fixate on food for now.
Let’s say you take ultra processed food away from that society. Or any other harmful addictive thing. What do you think happens to their overall satisfaction in life?
It is the objectively correct decision (at least before enough regulations are put in place that ‘ultra processed’ doesn’t also mean ‘packed with chemicals’). Let’s say you assess life satisfaction after an event like this. What would their answers be? Would they be true or would they just be the thrashings of addicts?
My point is that I think if you ask a heroin addict if they’re satisfied with life, their answer will depend on how long it’s been since a needle has gone in their arm. I don’t think the average person is actually capable of guaging their level of satisfaction in life, not to say that the average person is a heroin addict.
One could argue they’re the only ones who can gauge it.
But there’s definitely a struggle to separate the symptoms of happiness from the conditions of happiness.
Like, if happiness is just a chemical, then OD on it and you’ve successfully maximized the raw score. But if you asked someone in advance if that’s how they want to live their lives, I don’t think you’d get many eager for it.
Good point
Got a link for that study? I highly suspect that the happyness of the adults with Children depends on which country they are from.
No sorry, but I remember that in scandinavian countries the difference in happiness was much less, because raising children there is more seen as a societal task and less as the sole responsibility of the parents.
Edit: found it: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.13116
I think the above point of the study is key. If you are already facing significant challenges in life (economic, psychological, physical, etc), adding kids is not going to make it any easier, and might make things worse. I know it’s anecdotal but I’m personally pretty satisfied with my life, and that’s continued to grow alongside my kids. But as I mentioned in my previous comment, I have the resources and support I need to make that happen. I also live in a country that provides a lot more support to families than somewhere like the US. Not going to say having kids is all muffins, puppies, and unicorn farts all the time. But it’s been fulfilling to me, and if I had to go back and do it all again with my kids, I absolutely would.
Nice. Thank you. Even better, it’s a free study.
But instead of showing the coefficient of the model they derived, I would have shown figures 1 & 2 which are riveting to me.
I highly suspect happiness directly correlates to wealth and not the country.
Higher levels of stress, less money in the bank, fewer hours of sleep, yadda yadda. You could say the same thing about people who start their own businesses or take up a career in politics or do literally anything that’s taxing on the human body and mind.
Want to know how to live a truly carefree lifestyle? Take up heroin. Folks in an opiate haze are consistently ranked some of the happiest on earth.
It’s this sort of weird backhanded brag that tries to make a virtue out of self-indulgence. Might as well go full Gordon Geeko with it if you’re this far in.