I have not seen any on here. Only on Reddit.

I do not understand how this has been misconstrued. I can’t look at my original comment as it was removed but let me be clear. I have not seen any on here. At all. I never meant to say I had. There has been some confusion somewhere.

Why are you so angry at me? I’m just here for a sensible discussion man.

Center as in combining a capitalist free market economy with the social responsibility a government should have when looking after the welfare of it’s citizens and regulating businesses practices in a safe but not overbearing way.

I see myself as a centerist in the traditional way. I don’t believe there really is a “left” much in America. What is considered left wing in America would be classed as virtually center left or centerist anywhere in Europe, for instance. Even progressives in the US would be practically left of center elsewhere. There is no traditional left wing as it’s vilified.

I think minorities and migrants are beneficial to a country both economically and culturally. I do not oppose them in any way, nor support their disenfranchisement in any way. Nor have I said anything of the sort that would suggest I do.

If you’re still offended then you need to calm down.

Sorry I must have not made myself clear at all.

I meant Reddit is crawling with them.

I have no idea about Lemmy as I’ve been here less than a day, as you said, but it seems normal to me. How Reddit was pre-2016.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I’m just going to play it safe and never talk about it again on here from now on.

Yeah. It’s easily done.

What I wouldn’t give for a T.R Roosevelt figure in today’s climate, while we’re in that era!

Great. Sounds interesting to me. Thank you!

I see. I had that figure incorrect then. I apologise.

I hope you are right in the fact that most people see what ICE are doing as truly awful. I struggle to see how you could look at it and not think that.

If 30 odd percent support what is going on then by all accounts Trump should lose drastically in the mid-terms.

Whether he does or he doesn’t will be very interesting, to say the least.

Ah that was an interesting read. Thank you! I could also agree with some of what he says there.

As you also say though, strikes would be effective. More effective I believe if they can be organised properly. Trump has proven, as with Greenland amd his tariffs, that if the markets dive he will back down. That said, the aims would need to be clear. If the strikes try to force a change of government then it’s a tool others could also use in future, probably to great effect.

think countries are more likely to take action based on the US’s bizarre and imperialistic foreign policy,

That’s true. If the US is compromised by i fair elections though, I think the governments of other western democracies will see his government as a dictatorship at that point. They would be in for more of the same, supposedly indefinitely if Trump’s replacement was of the same mindset. I truly think that free elections is a red line for them. Just a theory though obviously.

The thing is that there’s so much horrible shit that the administration is doing right now, in front of our eyes, that I don’t really see much point in messaging about what they might do.

Again, true. I get your point! The thing is, Trumps base and his supporters repeatedly claim he is doing what he is elected to do. The idea of democracy and freedom is so rooted in every part of American life that, if it were truly under threat, I think there would be a big wake up call.

It’s one thing to say you are doing what you were elected to do. It’s another entirely to say you are doing things based on an election won very transparently by illegal means. Trump is down in the polls. It’s not like 2024. To pull of a big win he would have to engage in widespread manipulation that will be very difficult to conceal. If you can highlight just how rife it is, were it to happen, you can undermine his authority by pushing the message that he has no right to be in The White House (as long as you have clear proof). I think the Democrats need to be communicating exactly what Trump is doing to manipulate the elections and why he is doing it.

Since they’re committed to an electoral approach, they can’t cast doubts on the election because it could decrease turnout. They have to operate on the assumption that the elections will happen, and focus on criticizing things like ICE, while promising things that will materially improve people’s lives, like Mamdani’s approach.

This is the hard part though. If you fight someone who isn’t committed to free and fair elections in a free and fair election, without telling anyone that it’s not a fre and fair election then you’re setting yourself up to lose. I would argue keeping quiet and going along with it is exactly what Trump wants the Democrats to do.

That’s a good point!

I’m personally not sure it would because rather than unionised labour with special interests demanding pay increases and better working conditions we are talking about a massive general strike.

It’s true that it may well be like opening Pandora’s box.

The aims of the strike would need to be clear, concise and purely to stop violence. Using it as a tool to force a change of government would likely mean it’s use by others in the future.

Thanks. That was an interesting read! Feels like we’re slowly heading back to those sort of times to be honest.

I can imagine Trump using the National Guard as an enforcement tool in the elections but we’ll see.

As a side note, when you said Woodrow Wilson did you mean William Mckinley?

I’m not trying to be a dick, just seeing if you made a mistake or you actually did mean Woodrow Wilson and I’ve missed something!

Yeah I literally just moved here for the reason I expressed.

I’m not a damn bot.

There is a political theory that says you should continue to participate in rigged or unfair elections, while explicitly calling them out as rigged, for the purpose of reaching people who are invested in electoralism and convincing them to engage in direct, mass action, such as strikes or revolution. That theory is called Marxism-Leninism. The democratic party are not Marxist-Leninists

Are you sure on that? My understanding of Marxism is that they believe even fair elections are rigged, so to speak, because they are bourgeois election and they discourage all participation in any election that is a bourgeois election.

So why on earth would a party that is completely committed to electoralism as the only avenue of affecting change go around telling people the elections are rigged? It’s nonsense. It goes against everything they believe in.

That does make sense, you’re right. If the election is truly rigged though then aside from just accepting the doctored result, surely they have to call it out? Either you do or you don’t. It’s a binary decision, no?

By calling it out and stating exactly what they are doing, and how, you bring awareness to it and it shows the world that it is rigged. My hope is that then other countries will take economic action and populations across the world will begin to boycott thing i.e. The World Cup and USA made goods. This hits Trump in the only place he cares about. The economy.

The end goal being that once a stable and non-authoritarian government is in power they can amend the electoral system. That way the public and other nations are aware of why it needs changing and will hopefully support it.

It would essentially like Russia deposing Putin and installing a democratic party at the head of government, who then reform the electoral system.

That’s just my view.

What do you believe the Democratic party should be doing then? You’ve made it clear what you think they will do. Of you were in their position how would you deal with the rigged election situation?

I believe it will if enough people protest and show how they really feel about everything, including ICE.

You may disagree though.

I think the internet and news media vastly overestimate MAGA’s influence on the daily lives of every American.

I’m not saying it’s right but it seems to be the only logical explanation for everything.

How else do you look at what’s going on and explain that 49% of Americans voted for this?

That’s a genuine question. I’m not being facetious.

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Didn’t they say this last time?

People are starting to realise they’re full of it.

I think we’re starting to see a shift in foreign policy though. Especially after Davos.

Carnie’s speech was powerful. European leaders got Trump to back down (so they think) after organising and preparing a strong, unified response that spooked the markets.

I think they are finally starting to realise that he can’t be placated, he isn’t going away and that he needs to be stood up to.

Maybe I’m just hopeful.

I think a lot of people are aware but when your elected representatives won’t represent you, what do you do?

Personally, and I know this would be very difficult to organise, but I believe the most effective tool ordinary citizens have against Trump is a general strike.

The markets have been shown to be the only thing effective at restraining Trump. He only cares about money.

Workers are what make the economy, not the businesses. They have nothing without the hard work of everyday men and women.

Denying them labour in an organised manner could cripple the entire country.

Look at Britain in the 1970s/1980s or The Russian Revolution.

I’m aware it’s very difficult to achieve but I remain resolute in my belief that it is the most effective tool available. By far.

The Democrats to be talking more about the possibility of election manipulation by the GOP and making the public aware of their intent to fight any such plans, I imagine?

You’re right, it’s short on suggestions.

The big one in there for me is Voter Tourism.

If Trump and the GOP pass a bill allowing that, it’s game over.

The Democrats need to fight that and also I would argue any further changes at all to the electoral system with everything they have.

The article highlight

No, just ideologically and traditionally.

They don’t have any policies I’m aware of that are near the center currently, or if they do they are not getting much coverage.

They have had some reasonable ideas in the past, in between their mess of right wing policies that pander to conservatives and nut jobs.

This administration is nothing but a dictatorship without the name. I consider myself center. They are absolutely nowhere near it. It’s a mile down the road.

Sorry? I don’t follow.

I wouldn’t say any of those things.