What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
This post got brigaded; you know, that thing that the very same people accuse us of 📽
https://sh.itjust.works/post/44029753
Some of them even broke out their alt accounts, which they use exclusively for vote-spamming. One of them has a two year old account that’s never made a single post or comment. We ban those.
CW gross ideation about /u/davel:
spoiler
these people are seriously unwell, absolute nazi bar.
I came across one of them saying I was a degenerate roach in another thread there:
What’s interesting is that davel doesn’t put pronouns in their name, so that comment is confusing.
Lemmy federation still has a quirk regarding display names. Most instances still have my display name cached like that.
Your instance is probably one of the few who still federated with lemmygrad and hexbear as you described both these instances to a T. You can either block these instances or create an account with one of the numerous instances that have defederated from these absurd groups.
Got to keep that echo chamber sealed
i haven’t seen that myself but… is it that bizarre? it’s always been left on these spaces kinda by default so you’re going to see some praise of China.
These people dont even promote leftist ideals they just promote the interests of the Chinese and Russian governments.
oh lol wtf. i haven’t seen that. can you point out one? i’m curious.
They can’t, because we aren’t.
Whilst everyone here is just disagreeing with you on basically all points OP, I have to agree. There have lately been a lot more weird memmes, often factualy inaccurate and providing no real argument, that support or defend the Chinese, Russian or North Korean government. I do not in any way agree with the sentiments of these memes* but if people actually hold those opinions their free to discuss it, but I would wish that they didn’t do it in the form of bad memes in the general use communities, but maybe instead in one of their own, as stuff generally works on Lemmy.
Also, a lot of the worst memes came from one single account. I have since blocked that one person and it improved the situation remarkably. And for anyone who wants to attack me for “not being able to stand hearing other people’s opinions”, the memes this person (or to be real, probably bot) posted were factualy incorrect, badly made and not funny in any way. I don’t come to Lemmy for political discussion but for memes and other fun threads.
* This is just about my personal opinions and doesn’t effect anything I wrote above but here we go. Read if you want. Regarding the endorsements of China, Russia and North Korea my main problem is that I think democracy is the most important feature of a state for I think yhat the state should exist to serve it’s people and to do so in a way that reflects the people’s wills. Therefore, I have a really hard time supporting any non democratic state. Also, in regards to Russia, they invaded Ukraine! I have a very hard time having any empathy for a state that shows such violent aggression against one of their neighbours. Especially as I can not see how Russia or the rest of the world stands to gain anything from this war. Ofc North Korea and China have also done horrible things but I think have have gotten my point across at this point, I think democracy and free speech is important. That said, if someone can point to a particular part of, or some project of, some non democratic country that’s working well and then say “hey, maybe we should try that”, then I have no problem with that. But fully endorsing and saying that we should be like a, for example, China to me is a absolutely horrible idea.
Also, because people will claim that I did even though I didn’t say a shit about it, I do not either particularly like the US. What I said about democracy and not invading other countries applies to them to. I’m also not from the US but rather from Sweden in the EU
EDIT: after reading even more of this thread I think I’m starting to understand that many people just support Russia and China because there a counterweight to the US. For me this could maybe be a valid argument for supporting some of what China does but it does not for me mean that I can endorse China and their non democracy leadership and darker sides. Things simply don’t add up for me, I can’t support China because the US shouldn’t get to powerful because China should neither have that power.
I have a really hard time supporting any non democratic state.
And China is a democratic state, unless you’re just using “democratic” here as a code-word for “western capitalist”, which I’m guessing you are.
I have a very hard time having any empathy for a state that shows such violent aggression against one of their neighbours.
Yeah! That aggression should be shown to countries far away, in the Global South! Invading countries on other continents is fine, just not your own…
I think democracy and free speech is important.
Which is why I will support the enemies of the countries with the greatest history of overthrowing democratic governments, supporting dictatorships, violently suppressing opposition, and murdering journalists. Those countries being the USA and the EU members.
But fully endorsing and saying that we should be like a, for example, China to me is a absolutely horrible idea.
Why? Do they not bomb enough countries for you? Are you horrified to see a country where people are better off each year rather than worse?
I’m also not from the US but rather from Sweden in the EU
And the EU is just as fucking bad as the USA.
China and their non democracy leadership
They are a Democracy, you chauvinist, certainly as much as the West is. You just mean they aren’t western capitalists.
US shouldn’t get to powerful because China should neither have that power.
The US has gotten to powerful, and it’s done far more heinous shit than China ever did. This is peak example of westerners being terrified of non-westerner having power because they assume they’ll be as abusive with it as you have.
China is literally the only hope humanity has to survive climate change at this point and if you’re not aware of that you’re ignorant, sorry
Don’t want to start an argument, genuinely asking, how is china the “only hope”? If we look at certain european countries, or even canada, brazil or the drc, they run on a much larger percentage of renewables than china. China is still running 60% coal.
As for tech, china does have a lead in many technologies, but it’s not like they’re the only ones that can make good products in those categories.
I have literally never in my life heard of a country make an ambitious climate goal and then actually achieve it other than china. China is the only country actually investing substantial money into all that renewable energy research while western countries cling to fossil fuel profits (almost like capitalism affords incredibly wealthy oil companies inordinate political and economic authority, huh).
There’s literally a fucking meme of California vs China talking about high speed rail, after like 20 years California had built shit and China’s built over 25000 miles of it. I’m pretty sure here in present year that’s 46000 miles of it.
China is stockpiling resources and building infrastructure to plan for the absolute devastation that is going to be wrought on human society over the next few decades. What the fuck has literally anyone else done? If any country in earth is going to be resilient enough to weather the crop failures and super storms we’re destined for and, god fucking i hope, be in a position to help anyone else (and with an ideological basis that would impel them to without expecting a century of debt bondage in return) it’s going to be China.
This poster was banned? Guess you cant ask these kinds of questions on a .ml community.
They were pushing the “lab leak” theory and “spy balloon” theory.
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
A little follow up: Why don’t you live in China or Russia if life is so bleak in the western countries?
What are you, twelve, or are you a grown-assed adult asking this question?
Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago
I am so baffled since years that (mostly) americans think if you are against us (or its imperialism) u automatically need to be pro China and vice versa. I really can’t get why you guys always need to bootlick one or the other government. Why can’t you not fight for a better system, why do u always fight for a better oppressor?!
Really grinds my gears.
Your comment reminded me of this Rosa quote:
“The German government‑socialists may shout that the rule of the Bolsheviks is a caricature of the dictatorship of the proletariat. If it was or is, then only for the reason that it is a product of the conduct of the German proletariat, conduct which was a caricature of socialist class struggle.”
I live in the US, I don’t see the reason to demonize its enemies on the other side of the planet when my class enemies are right here running the US government and its associated political parties.
I don’t see reason to demonize people at all not Americans not Chinese.
We should be in solidarity with everyone from the working class, no matter his or her place of birth.
Fighting for the working class always means fighting against oppressors.
In the historical period we live in us is the worst of them, but that doesn’t make other ones good.
Freedom of minorities, press, and assembly are under atack nearly everywhere, in the us in the EU, in China and in Russia - but those are tools the working class needs to build a better system.
Bravo, you checked that the us government system has major flaws, may critically look at there enemies, for they are not even close to the ideals they pretend following.
Demonizing doesn’t help, but idolizing also doesn’t.
May try to fight for the people, not for the powerfull.
There is no system existing on this planet at the moment which will do that for you. Simping for one or the other oppressor doesn’t cut it, even if some are better then others, you need to fight for the people, not the powerful.
The way to fight for the people isn’t by going along with 100% of US propaganda about its state enemies.
Do you think that I should be taking a German fundamentalist ‘on a mission from god’ against china and communism as an authority on the oppression there when he doesn’t even speak the language and routinely fabricates evidence?
China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
And the situation with the uigurs?
China’s claim is that anything that is being done is being done to combat islamic fundamentalist groups/extremists. This seems to be backed up by international support from Muslim countries.
Genocide claims were always unfounded. However, no matter how nice the guided tours of reeducation facilities look, they are still in effect prisons, and we of course don’t know about the things that we aren’t being shown.
If your position on the topic is anything more than “They may or may not be treated that good”, you have information that nobody else has.
Cultural genocide is still genocide. You can get into if it’s to combat extremism as a separate statement.
Cultural genocide is still genocide.
Yes, by some laws/conventions/definitions of genocide it is, but China isn’t even doing that. Previously. Previously.
What about it? Say what you mean.
The genocide of them that ML refuses to acknowledge.
Alright, I expect some evidence of that claim. Please no CIA sources, I’d like to save us some time.
“please give me evidence” “only sources I like”. I’m not wasting my time sourcing things that you will deny.
You can’t bring us evidence because there isn’t any.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014 ran a proxy war in the interim and has failed to complete it’s military objectives after nearly four years of total war?
Russia has over a million casualties.
Is this what winning looks like?
