I always think back to this one quote, something like
You can tell the morals of a society by the myths they tell themselves. We tell stories of heroes who save the world then quietly go back to their day job until they’re needed again
That’s the problem with superhero stories. The story needs to begin and end with the world in a state similar to our own (for relatabilitiy and sequel potential) despite the vast power of its protagonist, so the hero must ultimately be concerned with preserving the status quo.
It’s one of the reasons why superhero movies are in decline now that all the most famous storylines have already been adapted, and why comic book sales have been going downhill ever since they started taking themselves seriously.
Also, often, the status quo they’re trying to preserve is “Earth is not being invaded by aliens”, or “this supervillain is not currently on a rampage”.
As for movies about changing the status quo, that’s really what the whole X-Men comic has been about since it came out in the 1960s. The whole theme there is “mutants aren’t accepted by society, but they want to be, so they put their lives on the line to try to prove mutants are good”. Over the years mutants have stood in for jews, racial minorities, LGBTQ+ people, people with disabilities, etc.
Sometimes the X-Men are fighting off supervillains or aliens. But, often they’re fighting off an oppressive government that is trying to wipe them out. So, the status quo they’re trying to change is “the people hate mutants and the government wants to wipe them out”.
The super hero genre is an individualist power fantasy. It’s about giving power to individuals, whereas in real life power rests in groups and systems. That includes the power to effect social change.
It’s an escapist response to living in an impossibly complicated world where we want to do good, but we feel powerless and unable to.
The story of a character organizing a series of protests wouldn’t really benefit from that character having super powers. Using super powers (physical force) to push political beliefs is terrorism.
So the constraints of the genre mean that social messages have to exist alongside the A-plot power struggle. And they frequently do.
Black Panther is about abandoning isolationism and using a government’s power and wealth to help people.
The Avengers have an unmissable theme of not supporting the military-industrial complex. Same with Iron Man.
Common Marvel villains include fascists, bigots, businessmen, and corrupt law enforcement, in addition to the madmen and evil gods.
I’ve seen this point made a few times, and it just reeks of someone backfilling a reason to hate something popular without actually spending a moment to, you know, watch that thing.
Your points only go skin deep and are surface level details of these films. These superhero stories are ultimately about maintaining the status quo. They never use their super special awesome powers to bring about meaningful or real change that would benefit their societies and never address the underlying issues that drive the “bad guys” to do “bad guy stuff”.
There’s a TV trope for that: Reed Richards is Useless
It has a list of reasons mostly narrative and marketing driven, so if the source material doesn’t allow it then the films wouldn’t either.
So you judge the movies without seeing them and you respond to my comment without reading it?
They never use their super special awesome powers to bring about meaningful or real change that would benefit their societies
This is what my comment was about. You can’t make social change with super powers. Super powers are a tool of physical force. I’m sure someone could write a great story about a super hero leading a violent and justified revolution, but you can’t possibly expect that to be a hallmark of the genre.
and never address the underlying issues that drive the “bad guys” to do “bad guy stuff”.
That’s categorically false.
First of all, most of the villains don’t have sympathetic goals. You want them to address the underlying issue with Red Skull trying to spread fascism? Do you have a problem with them maintaining the status quo against Loki trying to conquer the Earth?
Second of all, they do address it when applicable.
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Both Black Panther movies are about reconciling the antagonist’s viewpoints.
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In Age of Ultron, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver believe that the Avengers are a tool of western imperialism. When the Avengers are willing to sacrifice themselves to save Sokovia, Scarlet Witch joins the team.
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Helmut Zemo has a similar perspective. They never reconcile that, but he succeeds in destroying the Avengers. The moral ambiguity is part of the point.
They are constantly addressing the things you’re bringing up. Like I honestly don’t think you paid attention to any of these movies, because you seem to have missed some very obvious themes running through the entire MCU.
Tony Stark’s whole character arc in the first movie is about reforming his life to make the world a better place. He stops the homicidal villain with his Iron Man armor, and then he effects actual change as a civilian, because that’s how actual change works.
Did you miss Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where Captain America gives a big speech saying exactly what you are saying, that they need to do more to address the problems that created the villains? Or the entire arc of that character, where he realizes he’s worthy of taking up the mantle not because of any super special awesome powers, but because of his desire to use the platform to improve society?
Lmao wow what a cool-headed response.
So you judge the movies without seeing them and you respond to my comment without reading it?
I’ve seen them and I’ve read your comment. 🤷
First of all, most of the villains don’t have sympathetic goals.
Um… they are literally more often than not complex villains designed to be sympathetic to the audience, doing things “the wrong way” for reasons that the audience can relate to. Sure, you can cherry pick the one of few that are just evil because, like red skull. How about killmonger, thanos, the green goblin, doc oc, gorr the god butcher, magneto, ra’s al ghul. Even the example you provide, Loki, is one of these sympathetic villains.
Tony Stark’s whole character arc in the first movie is about reforming his life to make the world a better place.
In all of the Iron Man movies it plays out as a cover for his ego issues and trying to prove to Pepper Potts that his ego feeding is worth all the trouble he has caused in their relationship, it isn’t until End Game when he sacrifices himself that he completes the arc and acts with selfless motivation.
Did you miss Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where Captain America gives a big speech saying exactly what you are saying, that they need to do more to address the problems that created the villains?
Great that this theme was featured once in an unpopular one season show that only on Disney+ … totally applies to all the movies and changes their underlying themes
And then… like… after his big speech… did he do it? 🤔
Um… they are literally more often than not complex villains designed to be sympathetic to the audience, doing things “the wrong way” for reasons that the audience can relate to.
I agree they do a good job of making the villains sympathetic, but their goals aren’t. We can appreciate the complexity of Loki’s relationships with Thor and Odin, but that doesn’t qualify for your criticism of wanting the heroes to “address the underlying issue”.
Same goes for Thanos. His righteousness is what motivates him, but that doesn’t make him any less insane. There’s no reasoning with the Mad Titan (except in that one What If…? episode).
it isn’t until End Game when he sacrifices himself that he completes the arc and acts with selfless motivation.
He literally does the same thing at the end of Avengers. And in the meantime he redirects all the wealth of his giant corporation away from making weapons and towards things that benefit the world, like clean energy.
And then… like… after his big speech… did he do it?
Did he… personally supercede the governments of the world and force them to change their policy on refugees? Dude. He is a man in a wingsuit. He doesn’t have that ability.
That’s why this whole argument is bunk. The complaint boils down to: “Why didn’t these characters drop everything they’re doing and start a violent revolution instead of dealing with the problems that are right in front of them?”
That complaint has no merit, because it can be applied to almost every film ever. Why didn’t Andy Dufresne start a riot and force prison reform? Why didn’t Simba implement a social welfare program for the hyenas who helped murder his father? Why are all these high school students going to high school instead of starting a revolution?
These are silly questions when you apply them to other movies. They’re even sillier when you apply them to MCU movies, which overall do a pretty decent job of addressing societal ills alongside the escapism.
😂 my man, I literally pointed out a trope of superhero films… this is like if I pointed out how cartooN physics is different than real life, “ACHTUALLY CARTOONS DO A PRETTY DECENT JOB BECAUSE THINGS STILL FALL DOWN”… 🤦
You are fooling yourself about Marvel movies doing a decent job of addressing societies ills, though. They’re literally marketed to the widest audience and lowest common denominator possible, but I guess what one considers a “decent job” is pretty subjective. That’s fine though, they’re cashgrab mass market movies, no one expects anything more.
And it just doesn’t seem like you know or understand what a sympathetic villain is… it doesn’t mean they are “right” or not actually a villain… 🤦
That complaint has no merit, because it can be applied to almost every film ever. Why didn’t Andy Dufresne start a riot and force prison reform? Why didn’t Simba implement a social welfare program for the hyenas who helped murder his father? Why are all these high school students going to high school instead of starting a revolution?
Um… what?? Andy Dufresne didn’t have super special awesome magic powers…? Lmao. And the Simba question is honestly a good one. Why didn’t he? He’s literally their ruler with that authority.
You are not paying attention to this discussion in the slightest
If you say so
How would Sam Wilson change international law? That’s what they’d need to do to address the root cause that created the Flag Smashers. For that particular challenge, he’s not much more powerful than Andy Dufresne. The one thing he does have is a platform, which he uses, which is something you said never happens.
And it just doesn’t seem like you know or understand what a sympathetic villain is… it doesn’t mean they are “right” or not actually a villain…
And you seem to be missing the part where I’m differentiating between the villain being sympathetic and their cause being sympathetic. The former (which you brought up) isn’t relevant to your original point, where the underlying issue needs to be addressed. It doesn’t matter how sympathetic Thanos is. The underlying issue is that he’s a mass-murdering madman, so how is it a valid complaint to say that the heroes never address the underlying issues?
Suppose you took Thanos at face value and say the underlying cause is the concept of limited resources. What would that story look like, anyway? The Avengers alter reality to address the very concept of limited resources, creating a utopia across the entire universe? That sounds a little inaccessible.
I think what you’re missing about the super hero genre is that their powers are generally limited in scope. They can’t just reshape the world (except in that one What If…? episode called “What If Kahouri Reshaped the World?”). They struggle just like everyone else, and then sometimes through great effort they can save the day. That’s what makes the stories good.
Anyway, I realized as I was writing the Simba thing that it actually was a good point, so I prepared an answer.
The actual reason is that in the Lion King universe, “the Circle of Life” isn’t a complex series of interconnected, self-regulating systems like it is in real life. In-universe, it’s the dogma of an environmentalist death cult that holds together a fragile ecosystem. Any animal that doesn’t adhere to the death cult’s strictures is exiled from their society, like the hyenas.
And like, the environmentalism is fine, but forcing the zebras, antelopes, and wildebeests to actively participate in a system where their role is to be eaten makes it a death cult.
The system is explored in the sequel series Lion Guard, where Simba’s son goes around the Pride Lands using his super powerful Roar to maintain the status quo. Like if an alligator tries to eat too many of the wrong animal, the Lion Guard shows up and exiles them. Conversely, when a hyena agrees to adhere to the Circle of Life, she’s welcome in the Pride Lands. So it’s really a religious/cultural disagreement. Hyenas can’t be allowed in unless they’re willing to assimilate.
There’s a disturbing conservative metaphor there, although the rest of it smells like a planned economy. Very authoritarian either way, but then again it’s not called Lion President.
it’s not called Lion President
lmao
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What movie is this even referencing? Almost every depiction of spiderman has him as a man of and for the people. Admittedly I haven’t watched more recent marvel movies. Has that changed, somehow?
No, nothing has changed. You could make the argument in the comic about Spider-Man’s appearance in Captain America: Civil War, but nothing else.
Homecoming: Spider-Man is fighting criminals trying to steal hyper advanced technology to weaponize it and sell to other criminals.
Far From Home: Spider-Man is fighting a guy who is using advanced tech to stage destructive attacks with elaborate illusions in order to set himself up as a hero, despite the large amount of destruction and harm he’s causing without care.
No Way Home: Spider-Man is trying to redeem and prevent from dying some inter-dimensional villains he inadvertently caused to be dragged into his universe.
Infinity War/Endgame: Spider-Man joins other heroes to fight a galactic tyrant with Malthusian ideas of population control, hell-bent on eliminating half of all life in the universe.
In none of these movies was he fighting for the government to maintain the status quo.
He’s always been my favorite since 6th grade, relatable and really just trying to protect his city from shitbags. Sometimes he’s literally just patrolling looking for crime.
I also enjoy that a bit insubstantial number of his problems are the result of him just messing up while trying to do the right thing. Like the entire plot of No Way Home was caused my multiple screwups while Peter was trying to help people.
Metal Gear Solid 2 plays out like this. Spoilers below but it came out in 2001 so whatever
The bad guy is a former President that knew his job was just as a figurehead, nothing more. He found out the hard way that even his orders came from a cutout.
He recruited “terrorists” to take the sitting President “hostage” so they could “force him” to detonate an EMP over the east coast. The plan is to dismantle the shadow government (actually AI) running the government/censoring public opinion and hopefully free the country
You play as the wide eyed idealistic special forces infiltrator, trained heavily through VR and sent to “rescue” the sitting President from the “terrorist leader” and learn that everything you know is wrong and you were given orders by the AI all along
This is tangential to the main point you are making, but:
… I also always interpreted Raiden as basically Kojima more or less openly mocking or taunting the western player base of… well, mostly white male, naive/emo/astoundingly insecure children.
I remember there being absolutely massive backlash when MGS2 came out with tons of ‘gamers’ just calling Raiden a ‘gay little effeminate f@ggot boy’ and shit like that.
… Which I found quite funny in a meta-ironic sense.
And then of course, if you…actually do play through the game… well, from Raiden’s POV, … it basically is a shonen, a coming of age arc, making mistakes, struggling, being confused… but ultimately getting his shit together just enough to … well maybe not " “save the day” ", but avert utter catastrophe…
… as well as Raiden develops maturity as a character, reveals that… he actually has a lot of extremely serious trauma in his past, and he genuienly becomes a hero as he comes to terms with, and overcomes much of it.
…
MGS2, where Hideo Kojima dared to ask: What if an action hero wasn’t an absolute badass with a gruff voice?
(took western culture almost 20 years to even come up with the phrase ‘subversion of expectations’…)
Marvel is copaganda.
They made Spiderman rich in the movies because the writers a rich and think writing about a poor beneath them.
Other assholes include: Thor who is a dumb over privlaged fratboy who causes interndimentonal wars by acting like a dumb frat boy.
Ironman who was not only a war profiter who gave one the most powerful weapons platforms in the world to some teenager without any kind of oversight whose main story arc involves him fucking over poor people
Captain marvel is a brutal space pig who uses their powers to intimidate indigenous people on whatever planet she is on. Uses a weapon that can level city blocks and her character progression is that she needs to be more emotional. Plus she was fine committing genocide on the skrulls until she found out they had women.
Wakanda is a monarchist enthnostate presented as a utopia that tortures and murders outsiders and is presented in such a way that if it was the US the movie would be labeled as propaganda. Plus using ‘colonizer’ as a slur to call the people helping them even though they were never colonized
The eternals are boring
Wonda is everything that justifies the hate of mutants. But it’s not her fault so she gets an pass. But it highlights everything stupid about the gay and minority parallel. No hates black or lbgtq people because they can think a hundred peope to death.
Almost all of these people are sone kind of aristocrat.
Black Widow spends all of her movie rescuing like 12 people while letting and entire gulag of men die in an avalanche without even flinching. Not to mention the fact that her and Hawkeye worked for the CIA and probably overthrow countless democracies.
The guardians of the galaxy employ a dangerous psychopathic racoon who thinks nothing of murder.
The least aggregous is Captain America, a living propaganda poster. Antman, one of the only poor person appearing in End Game is treated like a joke even though he should be the most dangerous one among them.
USAgent was treated like crap before he did anything wrong to the point I kind of felt bad for him
Getting rid of Zemos direct Nazi ties makes him almost a hero. And those ties are less then SHIELD’s and less then that of most countries
Also, do not forget the beef between Disney and DeSantis only started when people saw they were working together. And only do scenes involving any kind of homosexuality in such away as to edit them out for whatever dictatorship they want to impress.
Also the original MCU Quicksilver was a thousand times better then yet another quipy hero that we don’t need. Plus asshole Quicksilver is closer source material.
Edit: wtf am i getting down voted for?
eternals wasn’t just boring, it was built on the idea of “ancient aliens”, which is horribly racist conspiracy theory that effectively claims that brown people cannot build cool shit. Pyramids? Aliens. Nazca Lines? Aliens. Nobody questions the Colosseum though.
Some versions do try to tell a more complex story, like The Boys and Invincible. My Hero Academia is also there as an anime
I like One Punch Man. While he is a hero. The fact that he does it for fun and is frustrated at being so powerful makes it really stand out.
I love OPM, however I think it’s more about shonen anime stereotypes rather than western superhero stereotypes
I haven’t watched those films in a while but isn’t one of spiderman’s things “fuck the police, help the poor”? I know he runs a food bank in the new games
It’s inconsistent, to put it mildly. Spider-Man is generally a working class hero and is also an impressionable kid constantly struggling under the pressure to do good. Sometimes that puts him at odds with NYPD, sometimes he comes out in favor of the Super Registration Act (he flip-flopped later)
That’s what happens when a thousand writers contrivute to one canon.
Sam Raimi Spider-man spent most of his time saving people from imminent harm and stopping armed robberies. He fought the CEO of a company that developed military technology who was killing people to hang onto his position of power and wealth. He then fought a mad scientist that spent the entire movie putting innocent people in danger, attacking Spider-man and ultimately risking the deaths of millions out of an obsession and the influence his technology had over him. In the third one… he turns into a bit of a dick for a while because he’s being partially controlled by an alien, and the theme for all three villains is revenge. At no point in the trilogy does he target anyone who is trying to make a political or social change, just people that are attacking him personally and/or putting innocent bystanders in harm’s way.
In the Amazing Spider-Man movies he pretty much just fights a guy who is trying to turn everyone into lizards, his own stalker who just happens to get electricity powers, and the rich brat that blames him for not giving him blood samples which he thinks will cure his disease (they won’t, but the reason for the refusal is still poorly defined).
MCU Spider-man gets recruited to fight half the avengers, which might play into this if the civil war was about a larger societal issue, but it wasn’t. As far as the movie presents it, the entire issue is about the rules governing the avengers themselves and the fate of Bucky. Arguably the Captain America side is presented more favorably, but that too would go against the point the comic is making because they are the ones resisting the status quo and sticking it to the man.
And in his actual movies, MCU spider-man fights a guy who is flooding the streets with high tech weapons just for the money, a con man that’s willing to kill innocent people to make himself look like a superhero, and all those villains from the previous continuities who is actually just trying to send home.
Maybe spider-man was a bad example. Surely the rest of the MCU must be pro-government propaganda, right?
Iron Man 1: Rich selfish asshole has a wake up call, realizes that harm he’s done by filling the world with weapons, immediately exits the arms industry and dedicates his company to developing peaceful technologies to help the world. Uses the technology he developed to intervene in conflicts where civilians are getting massacred and no one is willing to do anything about it. Defies the US military to do it. The villain is a greedy executive that tries to kill Tony to seize control of the company and continue building weapons.
Iron Man 2: Tony is continuing his policy of protecting people in war zones, in defiance of an angry US government. The government tries to steal his suit for the military, and works with a rival company to develop drone versions which Tony destroys.
Iron Man 3: Wouldn’t you know it, another company developing military tech is run by an evil guy and is killing innocent people.
Captain America: Literally fighting Nazis.
Captain America 2: Fighting the Nazis that have infiltrated the US government.
Captain America 3: Fighting to save his friend in defiance of a government that would rather kill him than bring him in peacefully.
Thor: Shakespeare in space, plus Thor learns humility.
Thor 2: Blowing up the universe is bad.
Thor 3: Thor literally helps start a revolution to overthrow a dictator.
Thor 4: The gods are assholes who should care more about people.
The Incredible Hulk: Science man good, military guy bad. Smashy smashy.
Ant Man: An ex con who went to jail for hacking a corrupt corporation gets recruited by a scientist who helps him take and an evil CEO of a corrupt corporation.
Alright, I’m not listing any more, there’s a million of these things, you get the idea.
Captain America 2: Fighting the Nazis that have infiltrated the US government.
…my memory must be shit; I don’t remember Captain America ever fighting DOGE…
