TL;DR
- Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
- The custom ROM project characterizes Google’s approach to device attestation as incomplete and flawed.
- Graphene OS is prepared to take legal action if Google won’t let it pass Play Integrity checks.
yeah. like my manufacturers’ 3-year-old, full-o-spyware ROM is more secure than latest clean installed lineage.
they just want control, not security. and with banking apps becoming a necessity, i’m starting to be forced to return to stock.
Myself, I use my bank’s web portal via my mobile browser. Not as instant as an app, but it gets the job done.
same bs with apps not running jidt because root or apps not being visible in playstore because of it. Netflix isn’t even showing up as existing in playstore just because i have root. it’s nuts. and there are tons of apps like this.
Netflix and their DRM is so extremely stupid it’s incomprehensible. It only hurts normal users while the rippers have no issues getting the content.
I have been using stock for a while, but I remember using magisk root to hide root to the bank app and I never had an issue
i do that but sadly it aint working anymore. they implemented a new google sanctioned way of blocking it that hasnt been cracked yet.
The world of mobile phones is a real world example of what we avoided on the PC back in the day when the IBM BIOS got reverse engineered, allowing for someone to put out an IBM compatible PC without having to pay the tithe to big blue first. Not that IBM didn’t do their level best to put those efforts in the ground with their lawyers and the courts as soon as they found out about it. Thankfully the legal system of the time didn’t allow that to happen.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
Phones, TV set top boxes, smart TVs, IoT gear. They are all a cesspit of locked down propitiatory and gate kept gardens where nothing happens without the gardens keeper getting a cut and having final say over everything.
This sort of control and gatekeeping from the likes of Google, Apple, and Qualcomm was not something that was hard to see coming a mile away, yet we all collectively let it happen anyway.
The PC was stolen fire from the gods. aRM snapdragon X will take back our fire, turn PC into smartphone on the desktop.
Heracles could shoot the eagle and break the chains, but then Prometheus might inform Zeus of the path to Troy. Titanomachy is one way of exchanging fire, but I’m human and content to hand it back and forth between each other. The pain of letting go is nuclear enough after Gaia and Uranus’s Family Vacation tore valleys through the mountains.
Chatgpt, decode this thread
Your message draws heavily on mythological references and metaphor to discuss the evolution of technology, particularly the ongoing shifts in computing power and platforms. Let’s break it down:
Stolen Fire from the Gods: This likely references the myth of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity, symbolizing the act of bringing powerful, once-guarded knowledge or technology to the masses. In a modern context, this could relate to how advanced computing technology, once limited to powerful PCs, is now becoming more accessible. ARM Snapdragon X: ARM architecture, particularly Qualcomm's Snapdragon chips, powers many modern smartphones and tablets. The "Snapdragon X" might symbolize the next step in this evolution, suggesting that these mobile processors are becoming powerful enough to rival traditional PCs, effectively turning a smartphone into a desktop-like experience. Heracles and the Eagle: In the myth, Heracles shoots the eagle that tortures Prometheus, which could represent a disruption or liberation. Here, it might be a metaphor for technological breakthroughs that disrupt the current state of computing, potentially "freeing" users from traditional PC constraints. Prometheus informing Zeus: This could suggest the risks of such breakthroughs—informing Zeus of the path to Troy might hint at unintended consequences or revealing strategies that could lead to new challenges or conflicts, perhaps hinting at issues of control, security, or privacy in technology. Titanomachy: The Titanomachy was a war between the Titans and the Olympians. This might symbolize large-scale technological battles or shifts, like the competition between different tech giants or platforms. Human Exchange of Fire: Unlike the gods, humans share knowledge and technology with each other, passing "fire" back and forth, which could represent the collaborative and iterative nature of technological progress. Pain of Letting Go: Innovation often comes with sacrifices—letting go of older technologies or familiar ways of doing things, which can be as painful and destructive as nuclear fission, perhaps referencing the intense impact and change technology can bring, much like the mythological conflicts that reshaped the world. Gaia and Uranus's Family Vacation: This refers to the myth where Gaia (Earth) and Uranus (Sky) bore the Titans, leading to significant upheavals. This could symbolize the fundamental, tectonic shifts that technological advancements create in society, reshaping landscapes (both literal and metaphorical).In essence, your message seems to discuss the transformation of computing power, the challenges of innovation, and the profound impacts technology has on society, all wrapped in a mythological narrative.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
From my exposure to supporting said folks with PC related problems, its easy to see the reality here. Phones provide a streamlined experience with zero frills. They don’t want super flexible computing devices, they want appliances. More to the point, the level of care and maintenance needed to have a top-shelf PC experience is time and effort most people would rather not expend. Doing this right was inconvenient to begin with, and left the field wide open for anything that would be easier.
My complaint is not that the “appliance” solutions exist for those that want them. But that there is next to no room in the market now for options that are not those “appliance” solutions for those that do want them but also want to take part in the modern tech world with things like NFC payments without having to trick the services with Magisk modules.
Oh, we’re on the same page there. I’m complaining about that too. Things are shifting from “make the environment easier for some people” to “painstakingly chisel out an expert mode like you’re escaping from Shawshank.” and I do not like it.
I really hope the GrapheneOS team succeed. Custom ROMs are reason I’m really into tech today. Coding, FOSS, Linux, etc. all that came from rooting my dad’s HTC phone back in the day. Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
besides these two lazy kids and the witch who just wants to eat there’s also the hungry stepmom who pushed the idea and the deadbeat dad who went along with it (until both women die and he ends up the hero)
Sounds like the
GoogleAlphabet familyThe pattern feels like a-b-c sometimes, but the rebranding keeps the story feeling fresh
Here’s a harsh truth and a reality some tech users need to wake up to.
Google has never cared about open-source. They have never cared about user-choice/user freedom. They could easily tomorrow make Android closed-source and that would be the end of Android. It has always been about control. Apple got that authoritarian idea correct long ago by locking down the entire OS.
Google is allowing open-source modding only because there’s a large community out there that cares and wants it to thrive. And since it runs on Linux, it would make Google look VERY bad if they removed bootloader unlocking, open source, removed features that causes issues for custom roms.
Google doesn’t care you YOU. If they really cared, they wouldn’t be slowly removing features or adding anti-user features that in the long run, don’t benefit anyone but them.
I’m glad the government declared them a convicted monopoly. I’m still ashamed it took them this long to finally go through with it.
What an insane world we live in.
Afaik GPL 2 would be stopping google from making android closed source anyway, unless I got something wrong about the license terms. But if anything that supports your argument. The main reason google is generally supportive of open source is that they recognize that they benefit from it. The moment that changes, google will try their best to close off anything it can (granted I don’t think it’s that likely to change, but they’re already abusing their position plenty).
There is another side to this coin though,
Android roms took googles work. The community could have assisted with other mobile os systems like Firefox OS or Ubuntu mobile but didn’t.
Instead ROM developers wanted a cookie cutter solution.
In practice, Android is actually fairly open. Republicans have a weird obsession with Google (remember that weird hearing where they clearly didn’t understand technology). You can even disable the inbuilt apps
This could lead to a situation like windows where 50 popups are added. It’s could backfire and it benefits Apple a lot. That’s what I’m concerned about. I’m worried that I’ll end up paying for Gmail or more for Android. And Google will get blamed for it
Android ROMs community took Google’s work? Are you forgetting which community developed Kernel does Android use? Let’s not think about the custom ROMs community as free loaders, please. They provide a free and amazing service.
Can you handily disable notifications being monitored or the keyboard informing google on your typing? Disabling apps is surface level, the software is free to te end user for a reason, google harvests us.
Wow, I legit just ordered a used pixel yesterday to give graphene a try lol. Uncanny timing!
Anyhow, that’s great news! I can really see the EU sinking its teeth into this if nothing else.
I plan on doing the same thing, any tips on finding cheap recent-ish Pixels?
A brand new Murena Fairphone 4 (North America) is about $600 brand new, IIRC. I’ve been on one for the last 6 months and it’s excellent.
I’m planning on flashing my One Plus 9 Pro with Murena’s ROM. I’m working on getting de-googlefied.
Perhaps consider DivestOS as well if it’s supported, seems to be a way tidier package when it comes to security and privacy.
Thanks for the recommendation!
I’m in an unsupported region so I’m afraid I can’t help much :(
In my case I just looked around a local eBay-like site and went with a reputable enough seller, fairly standard procedure there.
Enjoy! For future reference I’d recommend just getting the latest Pixel as you’ll get the longest software support. E.g. a Pixel 8a is supported till May 2031, which is plenty of time to get a lot of usage out of your phone.
Right, I’d love to spring up for a 8th gen pixel but I live in an unsupported region and my currency is worth fuck all so I’ll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro lol. Still fantastic longevity all things considered.
I’ll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro
Ouch, that hits me right in the 7Pro feels lol. Make do, indeed, lolol.
Honestly, I don’t really need my phone for much so as long as the battery hasn’t degraded too much I’ll be more than happy!
I’m holding out for the 10. The 8 added mirrored display (so you can mirror your screen on a monitor… I’d rather this come with the Pixel Tablet 2 and the Pixel Tablet skipped it form some reason) and MTE, which GrapheneOS says is the most significant addition to security since they’ve started the OS. If those come with the 10, not to mention the 10 is supposed to have Google’s inhouse chip and not Samsung’s…yep, I’m upgrading.
Great points, I’ll definitely keep an eye on the 10! Should fit in nicely within the time I’ll be due an upgrade, give or take.
Here’s my take which i have not seen in this thread. When you buy your hardware it is yours you should be allowed to do with it as you please. If you want to wipe the device and install another ROM or os you should be able to. Much like the recent fight for “right to repair” not allowing you to do what you want with your property should not be allowed. As long as the manufacturer blocks your ability to do what you want with your hardware it isn’t really your hardware.
Furthermore, if the manufacturer wants to pretend that they’re selling you a perpetual license to use the hardware or whatever legal bullshit they came up with on the back of a cocktail napkin between lines of coke then they can’t advertise using the words buy, own or anything similar without explicitly indicating in the largest font that you aren’t the owner of the product.
I wish you could slap a custom rom on whatever phone you want and it Just Works™ like you can slap linux on any PC, but instead we get apps that potentially don’t work, locked bootloaders, push notifications tied to Google Play Services, and whatever else. You can put Lineage on the EU version of my phone but not the US version because fuck you. I hate how corpo centric phones have become. Like Google shouldn’t be allowed to hijack my entire screen for an ad or an app update. The entire modern definition of “sideloading” is BS, apps have access by default to things that they really don’t need, and why do I need to use ADB to purge your pre-installed bloatware ffs
Not cool.
We can get same experience quite soon on laptops too when arm laptops&desktop will arrive toensd users.It gonna be lock down same as phones nowdays.
I do not like this prediction, because it seems like a plausible reality. Which would be awful.
Yeah it would’ve been like that for pcs too if they weren’t around for quite longer.
I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone. There are already several mobile UXs and distros with prebuilt images available as well, and it has been shown multiple times that Android apps can run fairly easily on linux. It would be a big risk, but I think it’d at least find a market success like the Steam Deck.
Android in its current state is the same as Chromebooks. A glorified walled garden of google’s crappy choices & DRM which just so happens to run on the Linux kernel because it’s free. People downvote me for this, but I maintain that even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.
It runs like complete crap sometimes on modern devices despite huge advancements in the underlying tech. It feels like a knockoff JVM which is already a known memory hog.
On top of that, it sticks with single kernel releases with proprietary OEM binaries so you have devices out here running on kernels as old as 3.x because no custom ROM will be able to recompile the device modules for a newer kernel.
It is almost hilarious to me that Moonshell, a multimedia homebrew software for the Nintendo DS (4mb of RAM), has more complete features, file compatibility, and better UI design than at least 95% of the music apps on Google Play. And it was written by literally one guy. I was honestly surprised at just how many music players lacked functionality as basic as supporting m3u playlists.
The problem of being stuck on an old kernel isn’t because of Google or Android, but because of chip makers (e.g. Qualcomm) not providing drivers.
I feel that the mobile world is ripe for disruption. There has not been excitement for new devices in a while from me and my friends who are all into tech. I remember 00s and early 10s where we used to discuss new devices all the time.
Most of us are STUCK with Apple and Google because they have both built walled gardens. It is not just the apps, it is also moving away from open standards, moving away from even files. e.g., 10 years ago mp4 files used to hold all the metadata related to a TV Show/Movie so if you put that into a device (iTunes for example) it’ll have all the metadata, now this info is in a separate database. SMS for all it’s flaws was open, now google wants us to believe RCS is also open (LOL).
This has led to a basic degradation in all the basics, echoing your example that it is impossible to find a decent music app.
Even apples own music has has ACTIVELY DEGRADED. Bottom bar of apple music app was “Albums”, “Songs”, “Artists”, and “Playlists” and YOU COULD CHANGE THE BOTTOM BAR. Now it is literally “Home” == Ads, “Browse” == Ads (pls buy apple music), “Search” == Ads. and LITERALLY only 1 page called “Library” where you can access your own purchased library. Same happened with apple books.
Android has seen similar shitty stuff, I remember being excited about actually FUN android games, tiny thief, vector, cut the rope, where is my water, etc. Now it is all ads, paywall nonsense.
Not to mention the Today page of the Playstore ACTUALLY USED TO BE USEFULL for highlighting some apps. And is not LITERALLY ONLY F***** ADS.
I feel/hope/pray that we have a SteveJobs 2007 type iPhone event around the corner, because everyone is ready for it.
I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone.
Huawei is being forced to do it. But like Android, their HarmonyOS is not 100% open-source. There’s also KaiOS, which some Nokia and Alcatel, and all Jio, devices use.
even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.
Both the ones I mentioned are designed to be more memory efficient. KaiOS in particular is aimed primarily at feature phones and entry-level smartphones.
The only reason I stopped using grapheneOS was because Google contactless payment didn’t work.
Loved everything else about graphene thoI’ve never used contactless on my phone, I already had a contactless debit card. Why are you, and others, using their phones to pay?
There’s no need to carry your cards if you already have your phone.
Also, unlike your wallet, if you lose it you can track it.
Do you not carry cash? My cards go with my cash, which I would carry anyway even if I could pay by phone just in case I’m out and lose one.
No I don’t. It’s all contactless here.
Lazy.
Just plain lazy.
I already have my phone in hand in shops - shopping lists, reminders or even plain taking my mind off the shelves so I won’t buy unnecessary shit. Then I get to checkout and…my phone is already in hand. Just boop it and done. No need to dig out wallet from pocket and then dig out card from wallet.
I’ve never used a contactless debit card. I already had a chip and pin debit card. Why are you, and others, using your contactless card to pay?
My Chip+PIN card has an RFID chip. Standard in Germany. Why would I tell, much less trust, google with my banking. Why would I let them skim data and/or a percentage off the transaction. Why would I choose a system with spotty acceptance, whereas I can use my girocard everywhere. It also doubles as 2nd factor for online banking.
I didn’t choose, my bank gave me a contactless card when my last chip and pin card expired (the card still has chip and pin which I use when contactless fails).
the app hides the real numbers for the credit card and gives the POS a mock id to make the purchase. it’s harder to clone. also you need to unlock the phone for it to work it’s an extra layer of protection
Giving a mock card sounds useful. I’ve looked into that for paying online but I couldn’t find an open source way to do it.
I find it super convenient.
Also, it doesn’t have a limit. Pretty sure I bought my last car with contactless on my phone, but that was years ago.I can create a virtual card before every trip, use it via my phone and then cancel it after the trip, never worrying if my card got skimmed anywhere for one.
when you pay using the virtual wallet it automatically makes a mock id to the POS … at least in my country it does
Ehhh I’m not sure how I got skimmed. Better safe than sorry now, a deleted card is pretty foolproof
For some fucking reason there is zero option for this type of secure virtual card in my country. And I hate it. A friend got skimmed for over $1200 a couple months ago.
I just want to buy a Linux laptop with VoLTE and be done with the product line “smart phone”. Unfortunately there is no such device (to my knowledge) and the only device that comes close is PinePhone Pro with docking station.
You can put a SIM card in some older thinkpad laptops with that upgrade option. Some thinkpads have the slot for a SIM card but not the internal components to use it. So make sure to do some research if that sounds promising.
There are VOIP phone line services like JMP that give you a number and let you use your computer as a phone. I haven’t tried JMP but it always seemed cool and I respect that the developed software running JMP is open source.. The line cost 5$ a month.
Skype also has a similar phone line service. Its not open source like JMP and is part of Microsoft. Usually thats cause for concern for FOSS nuts, but in this context its not a bad thing in some ways. Skype is two decade old mature software with enough financial backing from big M to have real tech support and a dev team to patch bugs, in theory. So probably less headaches getting it running right which is important if you want to seriously treat as a phone line. I think Skype price depends on payment plan and where you live, so not sure on exact cost.
Neither is available in my region and Skype’s webpage does not mention making calls, only receiving them.
More power to them
We’ve started the process of talking to regulators and they’re interested.
Oh that’s great, they aren’t actually suing since that would be a pretty big money pit, they are going straight to regulators, something can happen.
FTC act is the most useful against this sort of behavior and only the FTC can file suit for that, not individual companies. I don’t think this could be filed as a violation of the Sherman act. See here for an overview: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws
I have a still very capable for my needs “once flagship” stock Samsung phone that is now about 7 years old. I still have a good 2-5 years use with this thing based on hardware performance alone. Google and others have started to conspire to make “1000 cuts” with artificial app compatibility “issues” and the like that try to force my hand to upgrade HW. Most would buy a new phone, but this will inspire me to dig back into the custom Rom flashing of my youth, to get the next 2-5 years I’m deserved from this hardware.
Thank you to all the hardworking people that drive the ROM community to this day.
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight. It’s a constant cat and mouse game to pass basic and device integrity, but as of recently a lot of us have been able to pass strong integrity as well which has been nice.
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight.
That, I can see being more of an issue than an unmodified, trusted 3rd party OS. If I remember right, rooting makes the device fail Verified Boot:
It establishes a full chain of trust, starting from a hardware-protected root of trust to the bootloader, to the boot partition and other verified partitions including system, vendor, and optionally oem partitions.
https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/verifiedboot
Fair point. At least with stock rooted as I said there’s ways around it and I can pass all play integrity checks and such.
the only reason I’ve wanted to be rooted in recent years is when I didn’t have hotspot on my plan and the most complete way around that was with root.
I think I would like a degoogled Lineage/Graphene OS though
Why is stuff like that included not included in every plan by default? As a European, I can’t even imagine paying extra for that. If I want to hotspot my data, my operator can kiss my ass and simply allow it, I’m paying for the data anyway.
for this case it was a plan that’s pretty discounted and also unlimited without hard throttle. they don’t want people using it on computers or game consoles probably
Wtf, plans locking down device features. That’s mindblowing.
